Author Topic: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean  (Read 765876 times)

0 Members and 27 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Kenmair

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3705 on: August 15, 2023, 06:37:45 PM »
F'lilly and Chris. Have you ever looked at the case in a wider context instead of comparing it to the most remote possible cases – the Birmingham 6 etc, really? Have you looked further than Free Library or SL as sources? Have you been near the crime scene or talked to anyone who knew LM or his family, particularly his father and brother, to gain a wider perspective? Have you spoken to anyone that has knowledge of Lean and Forbes unsavoury tactics or do you just believe what you read online?

Have you ever questioned what got LM convicted or just lapped up the alternative ‘poor Luke wouldn't hurt a fly' theory? Have you ever spoken to a member of the Scottish legal profession? SL/SF, who have caused more damage than good, don't count. It's almost as they don't want anything to happen as long as they are kept in the public eye.

Offline Chris_Halkides

the value of cell phone data; Malkinson and Mitchell
« Reply #3706 on: August 15, 2023, 09:51:37 PM »
That Chris rabbles on about other cases, no one cares. It is snore scroll past nonsense. If you want to discuss other case's, open up a thread elsewhere and discuss with someone who cares.
Rusty and Ken More,

I corrected Parky41's erroneous statement about the accuracy of positioning a cell phone using triangulation; the cases I mentioned were to illustrate how probative this information can be, either to the defense or to the prosecution.

With respect to the Malkinson case, I wrote a summary on another thread:  "The Malkinson case is a cautionary tale with respect to the Mitchell case.  Offhand, I would point out that the former case shows that police cannot be relied upon not to destroy evidence, that even old evidence can be probative, that many lawyers believe that the CCRC is not fit for purpose, that eyewitnesses can be very confident yet very wrong, that the police sometimes withhold key information, and that it is important to follow correct eyewitness identification procedures [in order to avoid a mistaken identification].  There is also the question of whether or not majority verdicts (10-2 in the Malkinson case) contribute to wrongful convictions." 

Most of the citations I used regarding the Malkinson are found on the Laughable Eyewitness Testimony thread, and many articles have been written in the last month.  The relevance of most of these points to the Mitchell case strike me as being so obvious as not to need elaboration.  However, let me clarify one thing.  Some items in Mr. Malkinson's case yielded DNA evidence that pointed away from him, but because of the police starting to destroy evidence, it almost did not come to light.  Moreover it is within the universe of possibilities that it would have provided evidence that pointed toward Mr. Malkinson, as opposed to away from him.

To be continued.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 03:18:21 PM by Chris_Halkides »

Offline Rusty

Re: The three R's
« Reply #3707 on: August 15, 2023, 10:17:24 PM »
How do you think legal precedents are created?

Over a biscuit and cup of tea, everybody knows that, duh!

Offline Rusty

Re: the value of cell phone data; Malkinson and Mitchell
« Reply #3708 on: August 15, 2023, 10:33:43 PM »
Rusty and Ken More,

I corrected Parky41's wildly erroneous statement about the accuracy of positioning a cell phone using triangulation

Which collage in the states did you attend to obtain your education on technology? Or do you just use Google, aye?

Offline Chris_Halkides

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3709 on: August 16, 2023, 02:27:54 AM »
F'lilly and Chris. Have you ever looked at the case in a wider context instead of comparing it to the most remote possible cases – the Birmingham 6 etc, really? Have you looked further than Free Library or SL as sources? Have you been near the crime scene or talked to anyone who knew LM or his family, particularly his father and brother, to gain a wider perspective? Have you spoken to anyone that has knowledge of Lean and Forbes unsavoury tactics or do you just believe what you read online?

Have you ever questioned what got LM convicted or just lapped up the alternative ‘poor Luke wouldn't hurt a fly' theory? Have you ever spoken to a member of the Scottish legal profession? SL/SF, who have caused more damage than good, don't count. It's almost as they don't want anything to happen as long as they are kept in the public eye.
Kenmore,

One of the reasons that I became interested in the case is because I read Rolfe's comments at ISF, which turned the planks of the prosecution's case into sawdust.  She used logic and the known facts of the case to show just how nonprobative the so-called eyewitness testimony was.  She also used Google streetview to illustrate some of what was wrong in Ms. Bryson's testimony.  The agreed facts of the case are sufficient to demonstrate the weaknesses of the prosecution's case.  When I examined the eyewitness testimony in more detail for myself, I took a slightly different focus compared with Rolfe.  I read book chapters and found discussions of individual cases (see below for an example).

It is funny you should write the above, because I was just thinking that what is wrong with the pro-guilt position is that it arises from a myopic and narrow view of this case.  It is myopic in that only the finished product (the certainty of the witnesses) is examined, as opposed to considering how it came to be or whether it makes sense.  It is narrow because it ignores decades of study on the causes of wrongful convictions.  The same errors show up time and time again.

With respect to this case I liken the police and prosecution to car salesman who put sawdust in the transmission of a beat up jalopy.  One of the things that got LM convicted is no one checked under the hood.  Another thing that got him convicted was his picture in the paper in mid-August. Sloppy and sensationalistic reporting was another factor.

Let me take the issue of suggestive photo lineups as an illustration of how I approach aspects of the case.  I have offered the examples of the Dean Gillispie and Thomas Sophonow cases.  I also quoted Brandon L. Garrett: “Although showups may be highly suggestive, a lineup may also be suggestive if it is not set up fairly. At least 34% of the trials obtained with eyewitness testimony (55 of 161 trials) were biased, or stacked to make the suspect stand out. If some of the fillers in the lineup do not look anything like the description of the culprit, or the suspect, then the lineup is not a sound test of the eyewitnesses’ memory."  Professor Garrett is easily among the foremost experts on wrongful convictions in the country.  Besides those sources, I used the 2008 appeal summary.  This information, and quite a bit more, is now found at the Laughable Eyewitness Testimony thread.

The Free Library has its limits, but your alternatives are difficult to take seriously.  The notion put forward some time ago that local people have some inside knowledge is dubious at best, given the poor quality of the reporting in this case.  Based on my experience with another case, I don't place much weight on what relatives think.  I have seen people here truck in rumors concerning what the family members believe, and I put even less stock in those.

EDT
Professor David Wilson spent part of his career as a prison governor and designed facilities for some of the most disruptive prisoners.  I would strongly question the idea that he jumped to the conclusion that Luke would not hurt a fly.  He wrote, "Witness testimony is weak, inconsistent and more than likely wrong, and about the only thing that I could see that needed to be investigated more fully was his part in the initial discovery of Jodi’s body. However, this was not just a case of circumstantial evidence leading to a conviction, but one of literally no evidence at all."  In other words he saw what other have seen, an incoherent mess of a case.
 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 03:27:32 PM by Chris_Halkides »

Offline Chris_Halkides

New information
« Reply #3710 on: August 16, 2023, 02:32:03 AM »
No new evidence has ever come to light, since the trial.
A great deal of new information is available from studies of wrongful convictions in general, or from a study of the Malkinson case as a recent example.  According to some reports there are items in this case that could be subjected to DNA profiling, and the Malkinson case is a reminder of how probative such testing can potentially be.

Offline Chris_Halkides

Re: the value of cell phone data; Malkinson and Mitchell
« Reply #3711 on: August 16, 2023, 02:44:22 AM »
Which collage in the states did you attend to obtain your education on technology? Or do you just use Google, aye?
This subject is outside of my professional knowledge, which is why I offered a link.  Parky41 offered none.  Why did you did not ask him for a citation?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 03:20:31 PM by Chris_Halkides »

Offline Rusty

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3712 on: August 16, 2023, 03:24:30 PM »
I will be honest Chris, you blow us out of the water. We cannot compete with your expertise, sitting at home on your laptop 3000 miles away. Your sources and citations are impeccable, Rolfie and their Google Maps, random book chapters, rapists in England, reports from the gutter press. You have got this all figured out, without seeing a single court transcript. I cannot wait to see how your application to the SCCRC goes, keep us updated pal  8((()*/


Offline Chris_Halkides

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3713 on: August 16, 2023, 03:28:51 PM »
I will be honest Chris, you blow us out of the water.
Rusty,

Do you have access to the court transcripts?  From where do you receive information about this case?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 03:34:01 PM by Chris_Halkides »

Offline Rusty

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3714 on: August 16, 2023, 04:02:21 PM »
Rusty,
From where do you receive information about this case?

Pub's in West/Midlothian. These places are a hot bed of information. But when you make your trip over to Scotland, to prepare your application. I'd probably give these establishments a miss. I'd stick to the bingo hall's if i was you, in fact on second thoughts, give them a miss too, those old fish wives, jeezy peeps, worse than the men  8(0(* That's all iv'e got pal, anything else i can help you with, please do ask. I will try my best  8((()*/


Offline Rusty

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3715 on: August 16, 2023, 04:06:13 PM »
Anyway, i'm off to the pub to drown my sorrows, i cannot believe after all these years Chris and his impeccable sources and citations have convinced me.

Offline Kenmair

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3716 on: August 16, 2023, 06:54:05 PM »
Kenmore,

One of the reasons that I became interested in the case is because I read Rolfe's comments at ISF....

Who is 'Rolfe' and why are their comments to believed more than another's? Surely if you were to look at your eyewitness theory, then Shane would be the main one, and he couldn't positively identify LM as being home at that time and has not spoken out since - a huge red flag. Apart from CM, not one single person who knew LM's character and behaviour at the time has spoken out to support him. Very few LM defenders who attend the protests are from the Dalkeith area and most people are sick of it.

If a murder was committed in my street then local knowledge would play a huge part, after sifting out the gossip. Actual physical knowledge of the crime scene far outweighs Google Maps which doesn't show RDP in any detail.

I'm not sure why you would want to exclude all this wealth of knowledge and claim if something happened in Case A then the same must be true for Case B. I appreciate you like to dig deep but if you were to focus on more local aspects it would reveal much more than your singular eyewitness theory.


Offline Chris_Halkides

Perverting the course
« Reply #3717 on: August 19, 2023, 05:10:46 PM »
Rolfe should be judged in the same way as one judges other commenters, by the logic of her arguments.  Regarding Shane, what I said upthread applies just as strongly.  It is myopic to only look at the end-result.  Here are two of seven recommendations regarding alibi witnesses from Canada:

5. The alibi witnesses should not be subjected to cross-examination or suggestions by the police that they are mistaken. The alibi witnesses should be treated with respect and courtesy. They should not be threatened or intimidated or influenced to change their position. However, I agree that it is appropriate for the police to instruct the witnesses that it is essential that they tell the truth and that a statement can be used as proof of its contents. The witnesses should be advised that they should be careful to tell the truth and of the consequences of a failure to do so.

7. It is essential that any further interviews of Crown witnesses following the disclosure of the alibi evidence should as well be videotaped or, if that is impossible, audiotaped. Every portion of the interview should be transcribed. Any statement alleged to have been made by the witness and which does not appear on the tape recording should be deemed to be inadmissible.
https://www.millerthomson.com/assets/files/article_attachments/Wrongful_Convictions_in_Canada.pdf

Obviously they are not legally binding on another country, but they are sensible and practical.  Problems with the investigation into Shane's statements began with the FLO.  Shane's revised account of that Monday was backed up by his friend(s) and by other evidence.  Yet the FLO kept on saying that she could not accept this or that.  Remarkably the situation got even more absurd when he and Corinne were charged with perverting the course of justice.  The only evidence which conflicted with theirs at this point in the investigation was ABs, and her evidence changed over time.  The Scottish authorities in essence took the ideas I alluded to above and stamped on them with muddy boots.  The whole concept of charging eyewitnesses with perverting the course of justice prior to a trial is ripe for rethinking.
EDT
Alan Turnbull's shock and awe tactics were also dubious.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2023, 05:48:46 PM by Chris_Halkides »

Offline Rusty

Re: Perverting the course
« Reply #3718 on: August 19, 2023, 08:21:42 PM »
Problems with the investigation into Shane's statements began with the FLO.

You have never seen these statements, you have absolutely no idea, how the process went down. Which make the rest of your point mute.

Offline Kenmair

Re: Perverting the course
« Reply #3719 on: August 19, 2023, 08:32:46 PM »
You have never seen these statements, you have absolutely no idea, how the process went down. Which make the rest of your point mute.

Chris, I could get an Off the Record statement from Shane tomorrow that would blow your endless witness theory away. Post Code EH52 XXX. Will you then consider the logic of his argument the same as "Rolfe"?

It is well known none of the family support LM regardless of your Canadian case studies.