"Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean

[Mr Apples]

Is it common knowledge? Could you please provide a sample of the peer reviewed research on the subject please?

Was the evidence surrounding Kelly’s semen stain clarified in court? Unfortunately I can’t find any mention that it was. Perhaps my google is faulty? Could you please post links to the information you have found?

If Janine at any time after giving Kelly a false alibi had retracted that alibi she could have faced a criminal charge herself. Much like the woman below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/woman-jailed-after-providing-false-statement-to-court

His father would have faced similar treatment. Why is it so hard for you to believe that Corrine would have lied for her son but Kelly’s dad wouldn’t do similar to save him?

Sorry, FL, but you are clearly clutching at straws. Far be it from me to discuss the intricacies of dna, but what I said upthread doesn't require verification; it's elementary. I've given my opinion many times on here as to why I think LM was found guilty. Let's start with the fact that he was the only person she had arranged to meet with that evening. Then there's the very substantial and weighty circumstancial evidence that followed.

One of your more valid arguments -- and I too have raised this before on here -- is the issue of Luke's mobile phone and the lack of DNA on it. However, he likely had more than one mobile phone and transferred the sim cards about. Or perhaps, quite simply, it never got damaged during the attack (that long parka with all the pockets, and so on). Maybe he was wearing gloves, too.

[Nicholas]

Does that make her real?

I recall the younger of the two Kimberley Thomson’s being referred to on another Internet forum discussing killer Luke Mitchell

[faithlilly]

Sorry, FL, but you are clearly clutching at straws. Far be it from me to discuss the intracacies of dna, but what I said upthread doesn't require verification; it's elementary. I've given my opinion many times on here as to why I think LM was found guilty. Let's start with the fact that he was the only person she had arranged to meet with that evening. Then there's the very substantial and weighty circumstancial evidence that followed.

One of your more valid arguments -- and I too have raised this before on here -- is the issue of Luke's mobile phone and the lack of DNA on it. However, he likely had more than one mobile phone and transferred the sim cards about. Or perhaps, quite simply, it never got damaged during the attack (that long parka with all the pockets, and so on). Maybe he was wearing gloves, too.

I’m afraid that it’s you who is clutching at straws MA. You have failed to provide any cites to support your opinion. No reports from court of the events surrounding the deposit of Kelly’s semen stain on Jodi’s body yet you’re sure that it happened. No research mentioned that you have read re: the circumstances in which a semen stain can remain on clothing after it is washed. Absolutely nothing. You simply believe that it took place because it should have.

You state that one of the reasons that you think Luke guilty is because he was the only one who had arranged to meet Jodi. Can you only be murdered by someone you’ve arranged to meet? Did Sarah Everad arrange to meet Wayne Couzens or Sabina Nessa Koci Selamaj? No of course not and yet they were murdered by them. Many murder victims fail to turn up at meetings they’ve arranged. That doesn’t automatically put the people they were to meet in the frame. I really can’t believe that I have to explain this to you.

Again your last paragraph shows your obvious bias against Luke and your need to fit non existent evidence into the narrative to support your opinion. There was never any evidence that Luke had another phone or other sim cards and no evidence that gloves were used. Of course you can believe anything you like, it’s allegedly a democracy after all, but please don’t pretend that your musings are in any way proof of Luke’s guilt.

[faithlilly]

I recall the younger of the two Kimberley Thomson’s being referred to on another Internet forum discussing killer Luke Mitchell

Stop it! My sides hurt !!!

[Nicholas]

No research mentioned that you have read re: the circumstances in which a semen stain can remain on clothing after it is washed.

https://www.floridaforensicscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/DNA-Transfer-During-Laundering-May-Yield-Complete-Genetic-Profiles.pdf

[Nicholas]

Stop it! My sides hurt !!!

It would have been in/around 2010

Interesting how this younger KT doesn’t get mentioned like she used to

[faithlilly]

https://www.floridaforensicscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/DNA-Transfer-During-Laundering-May-Yield-Complete-Genetic-Profiles.pdf

“ However, an in-depth examination at the possibility of obtaining genetic profiles from items of clothing after being washed among semen-stained items is still lacking.”

Do you have the whole research paper?

[Nicholas]

https://www.floridaforensicscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/DNA-Transfer-During-Laundering-May-Yield-Complete-Genetic-Profiles.pdf

“ However, an in-depth examination at the possibility of obtaining genetic profiles from items of clothing after being washed among semen-stained items is still lacking.”

Do you have the whole research paper?

https://www.floridaforensicscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/DNA-Transfer-During-Laundering-May-Yield-Complete-Genetic-Profiles.pdf

[Nicholas]

I recall the younger of the two Kimberley Thomson’s being referred to on another Internet forum discussing killer Luke Mitchell

She was also referred to on this forum

A FORMER girlfriend of Luke Mitchell has told how he held a knife to her throat and threatened: "Dont move . . . or Ill gut you."
Just months before he stabbed Jodi Jones to death, Mitchell grabbed the girl and pressed his prized Swiss Army knife against the frightened 14-year-olds neck.

The terrifying incident was just one example of Mitchells aggressive and unpredictable behaviour which disturbed his friends.

The pretty 14-year-old, who dated Mitchell for about five months in 2003, told how the teenage killer pounced on her in a community hall in the Dalkeith area.

The girl - who asked to remain anonymous - was walking alone through the hall, where the pair attended a youth club together, when he grabbed her from behind. He held the knife to her throat as he dragged her into a side room.

"I didnt know if he was joking around or not to begin with," she said. "He said: Dont move or Ill gut you. At first I thought he was just mucking about, but then I started to feel threatened.

"I was sore round my neck, it was bright red afterwards. He had grabbed me round the neck with his arm and held the knife at my throat, saying he was going to cut me and stuff like that.

"I was nipping his arm to get him off me and after a couple of minutes he let me go. I went outside and just tried to ignore him, but then he came out as if it was all a laugh and said sorry.

"There was no reason for him to do it. He just pulled the knife from his pocket and grabbed me. I thought it was really strange."

Soon after the incident, in May, 2003, the girl ended the fledgling relationship - just a month before Mitchell killed Jodi.

She broke things off after increasingly seeing a darker side to his personality. The final straw came when a friend told her Mitchell was seeing another girl - who she is now sure was Jodi.

It now appears Mitchell was seeing at least three different girls at the same time. The murder trial jury heard that the teenage killer had also been seeing Kim Thomson, a 15-year-old from Kenmore, Perthshire, who looked strikingly like Jodi.

Mitchell had stayed in touch with Kim, who considered him as her boyfriend, after meeting her on holiday in the summer of 2002.

The ex-girlfriend who Mitchell threatened with a knife told the Evening News she had initially found him charming, attractive and "basically a nice bloke".

The pair were both 14 and went to the same youth club.

"When I first saw him, everybody in the room was chatting and we started talking - asking whats your name? and that sort of thing," she said.

"We got each others phone numbers and started texting each other quite a lot. He was good-looking and I liked talking to him. I thought he was really nice."

The teenager followed the same goth-style fashion as Mitchell at the time, but shrugged it off as a fad and changed her image as she got older. She said they had got on well for a while, but then things had started to change.

"He sometimes showed a side that wasnt him. He was quite aggressive to me and to other people," she added.

"He was really bad-tempered and he was totally unpredictable. He didnt want to be told what to do. I knew he carried weapons with him and he had a Swiss Army knife. I did wonder why he had it, but I never questioned him at all."

The ex-girlfriend said shed had little contact with Mitchell since they broke up, but that he had threatened her friends when he saw them in the street.

She added: "When I heard he was a suspect I knew he must have been going out with Jodi when he was seeing me.

"I was really upset when I heard what he was supposed to have done.

"At first, I never thought he could have done it. But, as all the stuff started to come together, I started to think it was possible, that he could do this, because of the way he acted and what hed done to me."

The full article contains 759 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Last Updated: 21 January 2005 2:52 PM

By Chris Mooney

She was 11 not 14

[Nicholas]

Thora Allan
‘Hi everyone, here's a copy of our updated rules.’’

The same Thora Allan who falsely claimed Jane Hamilton set a ‘honey trap’ for LM - even though she wasn’t at the DR back in 2014 when a journalist was meant to have written to him posing as a teenager

 

It was Dan Warburton who wrote to killer Luke Mitchell

[Nicholas]

I recall the younger of the two Kimberley Thomson’s being referred to on another Internet forum discussing killer Luke Mitchell

She was also referred to on this forum

A FORMER girlfriend of Luke Mitchell has told how he held a knife to her throat and threatened: "Dont move . . . or Ill gut you."
Just months before he stabbed Jodi Jones to death, Mitchell grabbed the girl and pressed his prized Swiss Army knife against the frightened 14-year-olds neck.

The terrifying incident was just one example of Mitchells aggressive and unpredictable behaviour which disturbed his friends.

The pretty 14-year-old, who dated Mitchell for about five months in 2003, told how the teenage killer pounced on her in a community hall in the Dalkeith area.

The girl - who asked to remain anonymous - was walking alone through the hall, where the pair attended a youth club together, when he grabbed her from behind. He held the knife to her throat as he dragged her into a side room.

"I didnt know if he was joking around or not to begin with," she said. "He said: Dont move or Ill gut you. At first I thought he was just mucking about, but then I started to feel threatened.

"I was sore round my neck, it was bright red afterwards. He had grabbed me round the neck with his arm and held the knife at my throat, saying he was going to cut me and stuff like that.

"I was nipping his arm to get him off me and after a couple of minutes he let me go. I went outside and just tried to ignore him, but then he came out as if it was all a laugh and said sorry.

"There was no reason for him to do it. He just pulled the knife from his pocket and grabbed me. I thought it was really strange."

Soon after the incident, in May, 2003, the girl ended the fledgling relationship - just a month before Mitchell killed Jodi.

She broke things off after increasingly seeing a darker side to his personality. The final straw came when a friend told her Mitchell was seeing another girl - who she is now sure was Jodi.

It now appears Mitchell was seeing at least three different girls at the same time.[/b] The murder trial jury heard that the teenage killer had also been seeing Kim Thomson, a 15-year-old from Kenmore, Perthshire, who looked strikingly like Jodi.

Mitchell had stayed in touch with Kim, who considered him as her boyfriend, after meeting her on holiday in the summer of 2002.

The ex-girlfriend who Mitchell threatened with a knife told the Evening News she had initially found him charming, attractive and "basically a nice bloke".

The pair were both 14 and went to the same youth club.

"When I first saw him, everybody in the room was chatting and we started talking - asking whats your name? and that sort of thing," she said.

"We got each others phone numbers and started texting each other quite a lot. He was good-looking and I liked talking to him. I thought he was really nice."

The teenager followed the same goth-style fashion as Mitchell at the time, but shrugged it off as a fad and changed her image as she got older. She said they had got on well for a while, but then things had started to change.

"He sometimes showed a side that wasnt him. He was quite aggressive to me and to other people," she added.

"He was really bad-tempered and he was totally unpredictable. He didnt want to be told what to do. I knew he carried weapons with him and he had a Swiss Army knife. I did wonder why he had it, but I never questioned him at all."

The ex-girlfriend said shed had little contact with Mitchell since they broke up, but that he had threatened her friends when he saw them in the street.

She added: "When I heard he was a suspect I knew he must have been going out with Jodi when he was seeing me.

"I was really upset when I heard what he was supposed to have done.

"At first, I never thought he could have done it. But, as all the stuff started to come together, I started to think it was possible, that he could do this, because of the way he acted and what hed done to me."

The full article contains 759 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Last Updated: 21 January 2005 2:52 PM

By Chris Mooney


She was 11 not 14

Luke had a type. Nothing sinister in that. There was plans for the Mitchells to go to the town where KT lived, a place where they had gone on holiday before. Those plans were cancelled...KT said as much in court. Luke hadn’t seen KT since Valentine’s Day...I believe before he started going out with Jodi. Luke had made no effort to visit KT since then even though it would have been quite simple to do so. There was texts and phone calls but what really didn’t they amount to but the dying embers of a holiday romance that Luke had failed thus far to end.

What was sadistic killer Luke Mitchell’s “type” then 🙄

11 year olds?

[Nicholas]

That whilst these young girls may have been caught up in the first flourishes of young love - LM most definitely was not. Clearly fooling around with other girls, and was in tow with other girls barely any time after Jodi's death. And it is clear that there was every chance that Jodi had found out about this relationship and confronted him. And we know that LM did not like confrontation - therefore more that feasible that he flew into a rage and lashed out at Jodi that day, due to this. Her extracts and complete infatuation with this boy, only show more so of how upset she would have been upon discovering him cheating?

Or Jodi Jones had found out about any one of sadistic killer Luke Mitchell’s other girlfriends

Kimberley Thomson 14
Kara Van Null
Kimberley Thomson 11
Kimberley Tait
Laura Wightman
Gemma Chapman

[Nicholas]

Stop it! My sides hurt !!!

Because there’s no evidence that there was another Kim.

There were two other Kim’s

[Nicholas]

Scammer Sandra Lean - 22nd August 2019
The girl lived in Kenmore, which is, in fact, over two hours' drive from Newbattle, where Luke lived (for some reason, having been there many times in my younger days, I thought it was just over an hour away).

Luke still spoke with her on the phone, but they had not been together physically since New Year 2003 - he and Jodi got together around the end of March, beginning of April that year.

There was no evidence that Jodi knew about Luke's previous relationship with her and an intended holiday to Kenmore in the summer of 2003 had been cancelled by Corinne prior to Jodi's death - Luke and Jodi were supposed to be at a sleepover in Midlothian the weekend after the murder to celebrate a friend's birthday.

The judge said, at Luke's sentencing, Jodi left "joyfully" to meet him that evening. Her mother said Jodi was "chuffed" to be getting out to see Luke. Jodi indicated in her diary that she would be devastated if Luke finished with her - it seems reasonable to assume she'd be equally distraught if she found out Luke was cheating on her, yet there were no signs of her being disturbed or upset in any way on the afternoon of June 30th, before she left home.

The theory about Jodi finding out about the other girlfriend and the ensuing fight getting out of hand was dreamed up by SIO Dobbie, but the interrogating officer in the Section 14 interview on August 14th 2003 (six weeks after the murder) was trying to suggest that Luke killed Jodi in a fit of jealousy that she might be cheating on him (even though, again, there was no evidence to support such a suggestion).

So, if Luke was cheating on Jodi and she found out, what reason would there be for Luke to kill her? It's not as if they were an adult married couple where Luke potentially stood to lose property, business, money etc in a messy divorce settlement - they were 14 years old. He wouldn't have suffered any of the more extreme emotions - betrayal, devastation, etc, because he was the one doing the cheating in this scenario.

In my opinion, the only way this theory is even remotely credible is if it was the other way around and Luke discovered Jodi was cheating on him. Even then, it's very, very unlikely
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336768&page=4

There was more than one “other girlfriend”

What exactly did this “interrogating officer” say to sadistic killer Luke Mitchell in the section 14 interview on August 14th 2003 about Jodi Jones allegedly “cheating” on him?

Was “Butch” mentioned?

[Chris_Halkides]

https://www.floridaforensicscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/DNA-Transfer-During-Laundering-May-Yield-Complete-Genetic-Profiles.pdf

Noel S et al., Forensic Science International: Genetics 23 (2016) 240–247
"For each of the seven bed sheet experiments, a 1 cm² cutting from the front of one randomly selected pair of underwear was tested for the presence of seminal fluid using the Brentamine Fast Blue B salt test (AP, Sigma-Aldrich) and the ABAcard1 p30 (PSA, Abacus)."

"AP and PSA testing in underwear washed with two, six or ten ejaculates were all negative. These serological tests were also negative in control children’s underwear, even when a cutting produced a partial genetic profile within the sperm fraction. Positive presumptive testing with an associated male profile in the sperm fraction can thus generally be interpreted as an indication that semen was deposited directly onto the fabric rather than transferred during the wash."

The fast blue B salt test works as follows:  Semen contains an enzyme called acid phosphatase (AP).  When it hydrolyzes an artificial substrate a nucleophilic compound is released that attacks the diazonium group (the electrophile) of fast blue B.  This creates a compound (a type of azo dye) that is purple colored, a positive result.  The ABAcard p30 test uses antibodies to bind to a protein of 30,000 in molecular weight.  It is a type of lateral diffusion immunoassay:  https://projects.nfstc.org/workshops/resources/msds/linked%20documents/ABAcard%20p30%20Test%20for%20the%20Forensic%20Identification%20of%20Semen.pdf

Suzanna Ryan wrote, "The possibility of transfer of sperm cells should be carefully considered, especially if the area where the sperm cell(s) are collected is: 1. AP negative (AP is an enzyme that loses its reactivity when exposed to water. If an item has been washed, sperm cells may still be present, but it is unlikely that the AP test would yield a positive result.)"

It is important to distinguish DNA profiling from the body fluid testing.  The take-home message here is that neither test performed in the 2016 paper gave an indication that seminal fluid could be transferred from a sheet onto underwear. Sperm heads are a different matter.