Author Topic: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean  (Read 766280 times)

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Offline Nicholas

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4170 on: September 08, 2023, 10:40:07 PM »
Doesn't tell you anything. They were young teenage girls testifying against a male child murderer who had killed one of his girlfriends, most of whom had been in an intimate relationship with him.

Whilst he was also giving the impression he was in a relationship with Jodi Jones
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline faithlilly

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4171 on: September 09, 2023, 12:08:21 AM »
Doesn't tell you anything. They were young teenage girls testifying against a male child murderer who had killed one of his girlfriends, most of whom had been in an intimate relationship with him. Please stop shaming everyone who dared speak out against LM. They can't all be wrong.

None of the teenagers testified except Kimberley Thompson and she didn’t once claim that Luke had ever shown any violence towards her. We only know about the alleged attacks on the other girls because those girls chose to sell their stories to the tabloids. Some said that the police took statements from them which may be the case but they were never called to give evidence and as the case was purely circumstantial you would have thought evidence like that would be especially valuable in getting a conviction.




Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Kenmair

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4172 on: September 09, 2023, 12:20:33 AM »
None of the teenagers testified except Kimberley Thompson and she didn’t once claim that Luke had ever shown any violence towards her. We only know about the alleged attacks on the other girls because those girls chose to sell their stories to the tabloids. Some said that the police took statements from them which may be the case but they were never called to give evidence and as the case was purely circumstantial you would have thought evidence like that would be especially valuable in getting a conviction.

Can you prove anyone was paid by the tabloids? The same tabloids who Forbes tried to exploit, while you support him as a credible person as "he's seen (some of) the court papers". Have you even been to Dalkeith or spoken to anyone apart from Loony Tunes Lean?

Offline Nicholas

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4173 on: September 09, 2023, 12:43:12 AM »
Some said that the police took statements from them which may be the case but they were never called to give evidence

Was their evidenve heard via sadistic killer and sexual deviant Luke Mitchell’s evidence ?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline faithlilly

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4174 on: September 09, 2023, 01:05:59 AM »
Can you prove anyone was paid by the tabloids? The same tabloids who Forbes tried to exploit, while you support him as a credible person as "he's seen (some of) the court papers". Have you even been to Dalkeith or spoken to anyone apart from Loony Tunes Lean?

Certainly none of the teenage girls quoted in the newspapers gave testimony in court. That’s the point. I’d be very surprised if they gave their story to the newspapers for free but anything is possible.

I’m not sure why you can’t seem to get beyond viewing those who support Luke’s innocence as one homogenous group who all think alike. It really is rather lazy.

And yes I have been to Dalkeith and while at the time of Luke’s conviction the people I spoke to mostly believed that the jury had got it right over the years that certainty has been slowly eroded and it appears that most people I speak to now are really rather ashamed that they’d been so gullible.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Nicholas

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4175 on: September 09, 2023, 01:21:37 AM »
Convicting A Murderer: Examines the Case But Not the Fraud that Sold It
👇
https://www.youtube.com/live/1DaFdBF4abk?si=Xhk4CwdAE-hkt01L

#ConvictingAMurderer Defames Steven Avery! 😂🤣😂
👇
https://www.youtube.com/live/Xt7Ot6pBp98?si=l6TN213lC8-mb7Ai
« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 09:30:37 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4176 on: September 10, 2023, 09:26:48 PM »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4177 on: September 11, 2023, 09:01:05 PM »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Chris_Halkides

Re: destruction of evidence
« Reply #4179 on: September 14, 2023, 04:25:38 PM »
If you are aware of some of the history of this case you will know that there were and still are “weak DNA” profiles that “fitted” with Andrew Malkinson’s dna.
Paragraph 16 of the Appeal document stated, "There was no scientific evidence which could support the identification of the appellant. Although DNA profiles had been detected in samples recovered from C or her clothing, it was only possible to identify a major contribution from C herself, with no clear profile of any other donor. At the time of the police investigation and the trial, the limits of DNA analysis did not permit any further findings."

Paragraph 28 stated, "The key scientific findings may be summarised as follows. None of the additional testing provided any indication of DNA from the appellant on any of the samples. The findings therefore provided no support for the view that the appellant had been in contact with any of the items examined. However, all of the Y-STR DNA components detected could be accounted for by contributions from C’s partner and Mr B."

Mr. Malkinson did not contribute to the autosomal or YSTR profiles.  Period.

Offline Nicholas

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4180 on: September 15, 2023, 08:40:00 PM »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: destruction of evidence
« Reply #4181 on: September 15, 2023, 08:41:01 PM »
Paragraph 16 of the Appeal document stated, "There was no scientific evidence which could support the identification of the appellant.

 @)(++(*

“The appeals document”

 @)(++(*

Is that the appeals document that stated Janine Jones lived with her mother Judith Jones

The appeals document that wrongly claimed Judith Jones texted killer Luke Mitchell at 10:41pm

Appeals,courts have biased agendas

See violent rapist Andrew Malkinson’s appeal court judgement as another example
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 08:44:38 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Mr Apples

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4182 on: September 22, 2023, 12:20:25 AM »
In layman's terms, what would've happened forensically if a person had deposited fresh semen at the locus, on Jodi's t-shirt or body? Given the way the crime scene was managed (i.e., the clothes & body being left uncovered for a full 8 hours, exposed to the open elements and periodic rainfall), would it have severely degraded the semen to the extent that it wouldn't have been able to be detected at all? I presume rainfall would degrade the semen to some extent, but not to the extent that no profile could be obtained, partial or otherwise?

Incidentally, I don't think the semen on the t-shirt was transferred from another item of clothing during a washing machine cycle; rather, I think it was transferred onto the t-shirt directly by SK (SK and Janine were in an intimate sexual relationship) and it survived the washing cycle. Jodi borrowed the laundered semen-stained t-shirt (she was obviously oblivious to the fact it was semen-stained) and the rainwater spread more of the semen to other clothing (her bra, for example) and parts of her upper torso as it lay there uncovered for hours. Likewise, LM's partial profiles could easily have gotten there innocently as he was in an intimate relationship with Jodi (this explains why his partial profiles from semen were present on Jodi's bra and body).Who's to say that Jodi wasn't wearing a laundered bra with LM's semen still embedded in it (it's well known that LM had sex with Jodi on Saturday 28.06.03)? Like I said, they were in an intimate relationship and having sex regularly. So many hypotheses and variables to consider. And there's the fact that her clothes were all bundled together in one big heap as opposed to the items of clothing being bagged separately. But, as I said, SK had a solid alibi for that evening (well, between 1600-2030 that evening) from his father and Janine herself (both Janine and SK were at SK's father's house for dinner netween 1600 - 2030 on 30.06.03). It's absurd that certain people think it's possible that Janine had anything to do with it.

Btw, what size was the semen stain where SK's full profile was obtained?


Chris H -- care to comment on the above? Surely if SK's semen deposit was fresh they would have been able to tell? The rain would not have rendered it useless? What was the size of the staining on the t-shirt from where SK's full profile was obtained ?

Offline Chris_Halkides

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4183 on: September 24, 2023, 03:39:29 PM »
In layman's terms, what would've happened forensically if a person had deposited fresh semen at the locus, on Jodi's t-shirt or body? Given the way the crime scene was managed (i.e., the clothes & body being left uncovered for a full 8 hours, exposed to the open elements and periodic rainfall), would it have severely degraded the semen to the extent that it wouldn't have been able to be detected at all? I presume rainfall would degrade the semen to some extent, but not to the extent that no profile could be obtained, partial or otherwise?

Incidentally, I don't think the semen on the t-shirt was transferred from another item of clothing during a washing machine cycle; rather, I think it was transferred onto the t-shirt directly by SK (SK and Janine were in an intimate sexual relationship) and it survived the washing cycle. Jodi borrowed the laundered semen-stained t-shirt (she was obviously oblivious to the fact it was semen-stained) and the rainwater spread more of the semen to other clothing (her bra, for example) and parts of her upper torso as it lay there uncovered for hours. Likewise, LM's partial profiles could easily have gotten there innocently as he was in an intimate relationship with Jodi (this explains why his partial profiles from semen were present on Jodi's bra and body).Who's to say that Jodi wasn't wearing a laundered bra with LM's semen still embedded in it (it's well known that LM had sex with Jodi on Saturday 28.06.03)? Like I said, they were in an intimate relationship and having sex regularly. So many hypotheses and variables to consider. And there's the fact that her clothes were all bundled together in one big heap as opposed to the items of clothing being bagged separately. But, as I said, SK had a solid alibi for that evening (well, between 1600-2030 that evening) from his father and Janine herself (both Janine and SK were at SK's father's house for dinner netween 1600 - 2030 on 30.06.03). It's absurd that certain people think it's possible that Janine had anything to do with it.

Btw, what size was the semen stain where SK's full profile was obtained?
Let me confine myself to general comments for now.  One, tests for body fluids or DNA do no give any indications about the age of the stain.  With DNA one can say whether or not it is degraded by whether the peak heights are the same or slant downward moving left to right on an electropherogram, but the time that passed from deposition to sampling cannot be inferred.  I do not recall having read information about degradation and body fluids offhand, but I worry about the risk of overinterpreting the data.  Faintness of color might indicate some degradation, for example, but it might also indicate that not much of a given fluid was deposited in the first place.  Taking blood as an example, luminol can detect blood that was poured onto the ground years later, even when there was no protection from the elements, including rain.  Ideally one would study semen and clothing using controlled tests with and without rain, for example.

There was a partial (meaning that not all alleles were represented) profile from the bra, but it had at least three contributors.  Under these circumstances and given the state of the art in 2004, I strongly doubt that this profile could have been resolved into three (or more) individual contributors, and Ms. Ure's words in this matter are ambiguous.

Let me make one other general point.  Detection of DNA, detection of sperm, and detection of semen are separate tests.  They have different sensitivities and different limitations.  The results have to be assessed for each one individually.  In addition, there are at least two classes of tests for semen, those that look for acid phosphatase and those that look for a protein called p30.

Offline Mr Apples

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #4184 on: September 26, 2023, 07:25:40 PM »
Let me confine myself to general comments for now.  One, tests for body fluids or DNA do no give any indications about the age of the stain.  With DNA one can say whether or not it is degraded by whether the peak heights are the same or slant downward moving left to right on an electropherogram, but the time that passed from deposition to sampling cannot be inferred.  I do not recall having read information about degradation and body fluids offhand, but I worry about the risk of overinterpreting the data.  Faintness of color might indicate some degradation, for example, but it might also indicate that not much of a given fluid was deposited in the first place.  Taking blood as an example, luminol can detect blood that was poured onto the ground years later, even when there was no protection from the elements, including rain.  Ideally one would study semen and clothing using controlled tests with and without rain, for example.

There was a partial (meaning that not all alleles were represented) profile from the bra, but it had at least three contributors.  Under these circumstances and given the state of the art in 2004, I strongly doubt that this profile could have been resolved into three (or more) individual contributors, and Ms. Ure's words in this matter are ambiguous.

Let me make one other general point.  Detection of DNA, detection of sperm, and detection of semen are separate tests.  They have different sensitivities and different limitations.  The results have to be assessed for each one individually.  In addition, there are at least two classes of tests for semen, those that look for acid phosphatase and those that look for a protein called p30.

What is your take on how SK's full profile was obtained from the t-shirt Jodi was wearing that night? What I mean is, how do you think his DNA got there? Transferred in the washing machine -- for example, one stained garment transferring his DNA onto another garment during a washing machine cycle? Or that his DNA was deposited directly onto the t-shirt and then survived a washing machine cycle? I think the latter is more likely, but, as per one of your links upthread, more research is needed in relation to the former in order that more accurate inferences/results can be drawn. What are your thoughts here, Chris?  Let's not concern ourselves with wether or not Jodi had borrowed the stained laundered t-shirt from Janine and wore it on the night she was murdered, as I know you have indicated that you have your doubts that that happened.

Incidentally, I've always been under the impression that SK's full profile was obtained from semen on the t-shirt. Was it? Or was it blood? (SL indicates on p.101 from IB that it was blood.)