Madeleine McCann - The locks to apartment 5a

[jassi]

Since Gerry and Kate left by the back door, The front door wouldn't have been locked by a key (Deadlocked)
______________________________________________________________________

 Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post524.html#p524

It seems that one Security minded, witness did double lock(deadlock) their own door, but left the key under the door mat, because they were only issued with one key.

It could still only be opened from the outside with a key.

They certainly appear to have had a cavalier attitude towards security.

[Anna]

It could still only be opened from the outside with a key.

They certainly appear to have had a cavalier attitude towards security.

The point I was trying to make  about the door mat was that a family would need more than one key, surely and the fact that they obviously felt safe in their holiday resort.
However I wonder how many family’s have done the same and how many local burglars knew about it.

[jassi]

I can't speak for other people's experiences, but when in holiday accommodation, I have never been issued with more than one key.

[Anna]

I can't speak for other people's experiences, but when in holiday accommodation, I have never been issued with more than one key.

Maybe that is where a problem lies, when there is a few adults in the holiday home.
Some like to pursue different activities, to those of their holiday companions.
I guess they could leave their key at reception if needed, but that distracts from the freedom of a holiday.

It was Just my thoughts on how I would have coped when I took my adult children away with us.
We always managed to get an extra key.

[slartibartfast]

It could still only be opened from the outside with a key.

They certainly appear to have had a cavalier attitude towards security.

What would be the point in a deadlock that could be opened from the outside with a key? With the patio doors being easily open from the inside it seems a bit redundant.

[jassi]

What would be the point in a deadlock that could be opened from the outside with a key? With the patio doors being easily open from the inside it seems a bit redundant.

Well yes, but one might expect people to reduce the number of entrance possibilities, even if not prepared to eliminate them altogether.

[Carana]

I can't speak for other people's experiences, but when in holiday accommodation, I have never been issued with more than one key.

That was a point I raised on a different thread a while ago.

If you share accommodation and are autonomous, e.g., have teenage children, an in-law, or another couple, sharing a two-bedroom flat... how do you share access?

You can always arrange to meet up at a specific time several times a day  - a bit of a pain.

Or leave a key at reception - not too much of a hassle if you are in a hotel with an efficient ground-floor reception in a central lobby.

Another solution is for the last person to leave the flat to walk through the village to reception and then the next person who needs it goes to recuperate it from there. That's okay, but on occasions someone treks over only to find that someone else had taken it 10 minutes before.

Or, yet, again, you hide a key in one of those "cunning" hiding places that every burglar's five-year-old could work out.

The point being that a key could have been duplicated by tourists "hiding" a key for an hour or so without any OC "key guardians" being involved at all.

I really don't see why the PJ exlcuded that idea either.

And then there is the bizarre story of a previous occupant family finding themselves with a cleaning lady entering the flat with a key even though they'd left their key in the lock on the inside. At one point, I thought that perhaps there were two locks with keys and the couple had left their key in the wrong one, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Anna]

That was a point I raised on a different thread a while ago.

If you share accommodation and are autonomous, e.g., have teenage children, an in-law, or another couple, sharing a two-bedroom flat... how do you share access?

You either always arrange to meet up at a specific time several times a day  - not too much of a hassle if you are in a hotel with an efficient ground-floor reception.

However, it's a pain if the reception isn't in a central lobby.

A solution is for the last person to leave the flat to walk through the village to reception and then the next person who needs it goes to recuperate it from there. That's okay, but on occasions someone treks over only to find that someone else had taken it 10 minutes before.

Or, yet, again, you hide a key in one of those "cunning" hiding places that every burglar's five-year-old could work out.

The point being that a key could have been duplicated by tourists "hiding" a key for an hour or so without any OC "key guardians" being involved at all.

I really don't see why the PJ exlcuded that idea either.

And then there is the bizarre story of a previous occupant family finding themselves with a cleaning lady entering the flat with a key even though they'd left their key in the lock on the inside. At one point, I thought that perhaps there were two locks with keys and the couple had left their key in the wrong one, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Thank you Carana,
My thoughts exactly.
 I would have had another key cut, if I couldn't get another, so it makes me wonder why there was so much interest in the lock, when there was so many other possibilities for an extra key.....available for burglars and  other criminals.
 How long do you need to be in possession of a key, to have duplicate made and how did that cleaner get into 5A?

[Carana]

Thank you Carana,
My thoughts exactly.
 I would have had another key cut, if I couldn't get another, so it makes me wonder why there was so much interest in the lock, when there was so many other possibilities for an extra key.....available for burglars and  other criminals.
 How long do you need to be in possession of a key, to have duplicate made and how did that cleaner get into 5A?

(I slightly modified my post just before you to make it clearer and as I thought of extra possibilities for holiday-makers. It's more or less the same in substance.)

The first step is to simply ask for an extra key.

I'm not sure whether one-week holiday-makers without transport would go to the hassle of figuring out how to get an extra (unfamiliar) key cut in a country in which they don't understand the language, nor whether they would feel entitled to do so.

If they were there for two weeks or more, had a hire care and sharing one key was proving to be a real hassle, then perhaps.

[Carana]

DP Rog:

 485 "How did it lock, and''
 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Was it secure''
 Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'

[Carana]

Thank you Carana,
My thoughts exactly.
 I would have had another key cut, if I couldn't get another, so it makes me wonder why there was so much interest in the lock, when there was so many other possibilities for an extra key.....available for burglars and  other criminals.
 How long do you need to be in possession of a key, to have duplicate made and how did that cleaner get into 5A?

There was a key-cutter in Lagos according to an ex-pat forum. There are several Intermarché places not too far away which may or may not have had key-cutting / shoe-repair kiosks.

[Anna]

(I slightly modified my post just before you to make it clearer and as I thought of extra possibilities for holiday-makers. It's more or less the same in substance.)

The first step is to simply ask for an extra key.

I'm not sure whether one-week holiday-makers without transport would go to the hassle of figuring out how to get an extra (unfamiliar) key cut in a country in which they don't understand the language, nor whether they would feel entitled to do so.

If they were there for two weeks or more, had a hire care and sharing one key was proving to be a real hassle, then perhaps.

Apparently, holiday makers at OC, were only allowed one key and that is why one witness put it under the doormat.
I have never had a holiday key duplicated, but it would be an impossible situation to deal with, if we only had one key between four adults.
Are the OC type keys the only of their type in Portugal? I should also think they would need new ones cut, when there was a lost key or did they replace the locks, I wonder.


Sorry Carana, You beat me too it.

[Carana]

We've discussed the possibility of duplicate keys on another thread somewhere.

What I'm curious about at the moment is how exactly the credit-card demonstration in Amaral's "documentary" is supposed to prove that the door couldn't have been opened from the outside and that therefore an abduction was impossible. &%+((£

[Carana]

Apparently, holiday makers at OC, were only allowed one key and that is why one witness put it under the doormat.
I have never had a holiday key duplicated, but it would be an impossible situation to deal with, if we only had one key between four adults.
Are the OC type keys the only of their type in Portugal? I should also think they would need new ones cut, when there was a lost key or did they replace the locks, I wonder.

No, there are several types of locks (many resembling normal Yale-type ones), but this cross / crucifix type doesn't seem unusual at all.

I did find key-cutters who duplicate "4 entrance" keys, but I haven't delved into whether they did this specific brand. I also discovered that you can order key-cutting machines and blank keys (including "crucifix /cross" ones) from the US for around $200.

[Anna]

We've discussed the possibility of duplicate keys on another thread somewhere.

What I'm curious about at the moment is how exactly the credit-card demonstration in Amaral's "documentary" is supposed to prove that the door couldn't have been opened from the outside and that therefore an abduction was impossible. &%+((£

It seems to be this thread a long time back

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32882;topicseen#msg32882