Author Topic: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?  (Read 62403 times)

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Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #105 on: April 13, 2013, 12:08:15 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?

Hi Faithillly, you pose an interesting question there.  However it is my opinion that any alerts in 5a cannot be taken seriously as the apartment was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed there. 

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2013, 12:17:24 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?
Imo the most disturbing finding is Eddie's in the corner of the bedroom, because nothing tangible was found there. It reminds me of the scent of cadaver I couldn't get rid of after being near one (not touching). Nowadays it's a bit different because they work on corpses to mask the scent.

Offline Chinagirl

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #107 on: April 13, 2013, 12:40:26 PM »
Nowadays it's a bit different because they work on corpses to mask the scent.

Please explain this and provide a source.
A

Offline Carana

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2013, 12:54:24 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?

Hi Faithillly, you pose an interesting question there.  However it is my opinion that any alerts in 5a cannot be taken seriously as the apartment was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed there.


Up until 26 July.

Were these post-disappearance occupants ever interviewed?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #109 on: April 13, 2013, 01:00:41 PM »
Nowadays it's a bit different because they work on corpses to mask the scent.

Please explain this and provide a source.
Sorry, I don't know how you call this in English. Here is a link in French :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanatopraxie

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #110 on: April 13, 2013, 01:03:07 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?

Hi Faithillly, you pose an interesting question there.  However it is my opinion that any alerts in 5a cannot be taken seriously as the apartment was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed there.


Up until 26 July.

Were these post-disappearance occupants ever interviewed?

Yes, I would be interested in learning whether the subsequent occupants were ever interviewed too, Carana.  Can anyone help? 

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #111 on: April 13, 2013, 02:30:07 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?

Mark Harrison observed all the searches.  He doesn't explicitly state an opinion on what he observed.

But there are two things I have always found interesting: Harrison's summary of the searches which as follows:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


Notice how selective Harrison is in owning UK participation.  Only in those searches he recommended does he say Grime and Eddie took part: the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place.  That's it.

Both inspections at the villa and (following) at the gym are summarised (without description) as 'PJ exercises'.

And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, Harrison's recommendation was that cars owned or driven by Murat should be inspected.  A car he hired never made the line-up.  Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.

The other thing that's interesting is that, following the inspection at the gym, Harrison issued PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct a search ...

I'm sure there's a reason ...

ETA:

Here are the searches Harrison recommended:

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


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Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

Murat's Vehicles.

All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach. This would be


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a considerable time and cost undertaking and should be weighed in the absence of specific intelligence.

Search Duration.

If all the described assets were deployed it would be likely all assets would complete their searches within one week.



It also exposes a lie of Amaral's in his El Mundo interview that (sic) no one talked about murder.

Oh yes they did, and Harrison even offered to offer to write a report considering other possibilities or scenarios on request.

If he was ever asked, and ever wrote another report, we don't see it on line
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 02:52:18 PM by ferryman »

C.Edwards

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Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #112 on: April 13, 2013, 04:03:13 PM »
Notice how selective Harrison is in owning UK participation.  Only in those searches he recommended does he say Grime and Eddie took part: the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place.  That's it.

Both inspections at the villa and (following) at the gym are summarised (without description) as 'PJ exercises'.

Now you mention it, no.  I can see no mention of Eddie or Grime in your long and confusing post.  Neither is there any other mention of "PJ Exercise".

If you have a point, it's lost on me I'm afraid. Can anyone else translate maybe?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2013, 04:04:31 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?

Hi Faithillly, you pose an interesting question there.  However it is my opinion that any alerts in 5a cannot be taken seriously as the apartment was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed there.

Unless the post abduction occupants had someone in their party who died in the apartment during their holiday I think it's safe to say that the cadaver scent Eddie alerted to in the bedroom was absolutely nothing to do with them.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2013, 04:12:07 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?

Hi Faithillly, you pose an interesting question there.  However it is my opinion that any alerts in 5a cannot be taken seriously as the apartment was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed there.

Unless the post abduction occupants had someone in their party who died in the apartment during their holiday I think it's safe to say that the cadaver scent Eddie alerted to in the bedroom was absolutely nothing to do with them.

Ah, but in McCann-supporter world, they'll talk about transference and so on.  Which, incidentally, would probably mean that Eddie wouldn't have stopped barking from the moment he set foot on Portuguese soil if that was a real concern...

Offline Carana

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #115 on: April 13, 2013, 04:14:16 PM »

Dogs are at best only 90% accurate in ideal circumstances, less in the real world. Because two alerts/non-alerts are required, the maximum for such an ID is 80%. Dogs also make serial errors.
Some dogs are better than others in doing specific tasks, like human beings.

Agreed. None are better than 90% IRL.
Do you agree it builds a solid presumption about Madeleine dying in the flat ? This doesn't imply she died accidentally "on her own". A burglar might have unintentionally killed her trying to avoid her screaming. Then he would have disposed of her body, well aware he had left DNA on her. Of course he would have had to stay in the flat at least one hour...


I wondered about that. However, if she died in that apartment and was taken out quickly, how likely is it that Eddie reacted - three months later -  to such a short accumulation of smell in an apartment in which dozens of people had been... including all the post-disappearance guests?

Offline peter claridge

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #116 on: April 13, 2013, 04:18:41 PM »
What have the checks of Jane Tanner, Russell O'Brien, Mathew Oldfield, Gerry McCann and Kate McCann got in common?
They were all fabricated after the Smith family sighting.  Of the five, Jane Tanner never even left the table until after the alarm was raised.
Russell O'Brien's daughter wasn't ill. Mathew Oldfield wasn't checking the 3 shutters at 9.00 and he didn't carry out any of his claimed 9.30 check, Gerry McCann wasn't checking at 9.15 and had been away from the table for at least 20 minutes when he encountered Jez and Kate McCann wasn't carrying out a check when she raised the alarm.

It was never their intention to raise the alarm whilst dining at the Tapas bar!

Oh?  So when did they intend to raise the alarm?
In the morning.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2013, 04:38:54 PM »

Dogs are at best only 90% accurate in ideal circumstances, less in the real world. Because two alerts/non-alerts are required, the maximum for such an ID is 80%. Dogs also make serial errors.
Some dogs are better than others in doing specific tasks, like human beings.

Agreed. None are better than 90% IRL.
Do you agree it builds a solid presumption about Madeleine dying in the flat ? This doesn't imply she died accidentally "on her own". A burglar might have unintentionally killed her trying to avoid her screaming. Then he would have disposed of her body, well aware he had left DNA on her. Of course he would have had to stay in the flat at least one hour...


I wondered about that. However, if she died in that apartment and was taken out quickly, how likely is it that Eddie reacted - three months later -  to such a short accumulation of smell in an apartment in which dozens of people had been... including all the post-disappearance guests?

And don't forget one pre disappearance guest who cut himself shaving, bled for 45 minutes and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood with tissue.

Recorded in the files, somewhere, is the length of time dog and handler spent in each apartment.  The other 5 apartments were whistle-stop tours.

But in apartment 5a an inordinate amount of time was spent and a response (eventually) elicited.

Are we really to believe that apartment 5a was the only one where blood was spilt?


C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #118 on: April 13, 2013, 04:41:16 PM »
I've often cut myself shaving. Oddly enough this has never led to a trail of blood around the house. Maybe he was shaving with a machete or hedge trimmer and severed an artery?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #119 on: April 13, 2013, 04:42:37 PM »
So you think Mr Gordon was lying?