Author Topic: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?  (Read 62423 times)

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Offline peter claridge

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #120 on: April 13, 2013, 04:44:07 PM »
What have the checks of Jane Tanner, Russell O'Brien, Mathew Oldfield, Gerry McCann and Kate McCann got in common?
They were all fabricated after the Smith family sighting.  Of the five, Jane Tanner never even left the table until after the alarm was raised.
Russell O'Brien's daughter wasn't ill. Mathew Oldfield wasn't checking the 3 shutters at 9.00 and he didn't carry out any of his claimed 9.30 check, Gerry McCann wasn't checking at 9.15 and had been away from the table for at least 20 minutes when he encountered Jez and Kate McCann wasn't carrying out a check when she raised the alarm.

It was never their intention to raise the alarm whilst dining at the Tapas bar!

Oh?  So when did they intend to raise the alarm?
In the morning.

How do you know this?  Do you mean the McCanns wanted to stage an abduction that took place while they were all asleep in the apartment, with no alibi to account for their movements at all during the night?
They would have been asleep, much more straight forward than having to fabricate a timeline to include the abduction/childcare scenario that the Smith sighting forced upon them, no need for those unlocked patio doors either.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #121 on: April 13, 2013, 04:45:14 PM »

Dogs are at best only 90% accurate in ideal circumstances, less in the real world. Because two alerts/non-alerts are required, the maximum for such an ID is 80%. Dogs also make serial errors.
Some dogs are better than others in doing specific tasks, like human beings.

Agreed. None are better than 90% IRL.
Do you agree it builds a solid presumption about Madeleine dying in the flat ? This doesn't imply she died accidentally "on her own". A burglar might have unintentionally killed her trying to avoid her screaming. Then he would have disposed of her body, well aware he had left DNA on her. Of course he would have had to stay in the flat at least one hour...


I wondered about that. However, if she died in that apartment and was taken out quickly, how likely is it that Eddie reacted - three months later -  to such a short accumulation of smell in an apartment in which dozens of people had been... including all the post-disappearance guests?
Dozens of people, cleaning of the flats for weeks, drafts aren't the problem. Time is : an hour and a half has been determined as the minimum - for a trained dog's nose.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #122 on: April 13, 2013, 04:47:25 PM »
So you think Mr Gordon was lying?

What did he actually say about whether he left a trail of blood or not, hb?

Offline peter claridge

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #123 on: April 13, 2013, 04:48:29 PM »

Dogs are at best only 90% accurate in ideal circumstances, less in the real world. Because two alerts/non-alerts are required, the maximum for such an ID is 80%. Dogs also make serial errors.
Some dogs are better than others in doing specific tasks, like human beings.

Agreed. None are better than 90% IRL.
Do you agree it builds a solid presumption about Madeleine dying in the flat ? This doesn't imply she died accidentally "on her own". A burglar might have unintentionally killed her trying to avoid her screaming. Then he would have disposed of her body, well aware he had left DNA on her. Of course he would have had to stay in the flat at least one hour...


I wondered about that. However, if she died in that apartment and was taken out quickly, how likely is it that Eddie reacted - three months later -  to such a short accumulation of smell in an apartment in which dozens of people had been... including all the post-disappearance guests?

And don't forget one pre disappearance guest who cut himself shaving, bled for 45 minutes and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood with tissue.

Recorded in the files, somewhere, is the length of time dog and handler spent in each apartment.  The other 5 apartments were whistle-stop tours.

But in apartment 5a an inordinate amount of time was spent and a response (eventually) elicited.

Are we really to believe that apartment 5a was the only one where blood was spilt?
Gerry thinks it is Madeleine's blood that was found.
The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #124 on: April 13, 2013, 04:54:51 PM »
@ debunker

How do you explain that the dogs alerted to only items and property connected to the McCanns ?

Hi Faithillly, you pose an interesting question there.  However it is my opinion that any alerts in 5a cannot be taken seriously as the apartment was re-let several times before Eddie and Keela were deployed there.

Unless the post abduction occupants had someone in their party who died in the apartment during their holiday I think it's safe to say that the cadaver scent Eddie alerted to in the bedroom was absolutely nothing to do with them.

Fair enough..... but how about if they had bought a garment from a charity shop that someone had unfortunately died when wearing, then taken said garment on holiday to PT and stored said garment in the wardrobe.  I believe there was a situation like this in the Shannon Matthews case concerning a bed.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #125 on: April 13, 2013, 04:56:15 PM »
Quote
While we were in Portugal there were no incidents worthy of record, beyond this man that I have described, however there was one occasion when I cut myself shaving in the bathroom of the apartment. I would say that the cut bled for about 45 minutes and that it took some time until the cut stopped bleeding, during which period I walked around the apartment with paper tissues trying to stop the blood.
from Gordon's statement

Yes. All well and good - I do the same thing.  I've never been aware of any of my blood hitting the floor though, it just take pressure from a tissue.  If he was dropping the tissues everywhere, he didn't mention it. Furthermore he would have probably mentioned having to wipe blood up if he'd had to in the circumstances.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #126 on: April 13, 2013, 04:58:36 PM »

Dogs are at best only 90% accurate in ideal circumstances, less in the real world. Because two alerts/non-alerts are required, the maximum for such an ID is 80%. Dogs also make serial errors.
Some dogs are better than others in doing specific tasks, like human beings.

Agreed. None are better than 90% IRL.
Do you agree it builds a solid presumption about Madeleine dying in the flat ? This doesn't imply she died accidentally "on her own". A burglar might have unintentionally killed her trying to avoid her screaming. Then he would have disposed of her body, well aware he had left DNA on her. Of course he would have had to stay in the flat at least one hour...


I wondered about that. However, if she died in that apartment and was taken out quickly, how likely is it that Eddie reacted - three months later -  to such a short accumulation of smell in an apartment in which dozens of people had been... including all the post-disappearance guests?

And don't forget one pre disappearance guest who cut himself shaving, bled for 45 minutes and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood with tissue.

Recorded in the files, somewhere, is the length of time dog and handler spent in each apartment.  The other 5 apartments were whistle-stop tours.

But in apartment 5a an inordinate amount of time was spent and a response (eventually) elicited.

Are we really to believe that apartment 5a was the only one where blood was spilt?
At that point if you doubt Martin Grime's words, there's no interest in going on.
Personally I find no motive for his lying when he said Eddie (not Keela) was excited at the entrance of the flat. Having trained his dog for years, MG understood there was something inside and let the dog run around freely. MG knew that without some forensic material Eddie's findings were of no use.
Remember the task is exhausting for the dog, it can't do it for hours without large periods of rest.

Offline peter claridge

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #127 on: April 13, 2013, 05:09:53 PM »
Also, if this was the plan, then why did Gerry decide to carry a corpse through the streets of PdL completely uncovered during dinner and whilst holiday makers would be around?  Peter, you seem to have all the answers, perhaps you can throw some light on this.
Ideal time to remove Madeleine (what other choice could there have been).  Of course he wasn't expecting to come across ten members of the same family especially down those side streets.

Offline goatboy

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #128 on: April 13, 2013, 05:19:01 PM »
Also, if this was the plan, then why did Gerry decide to carry a corpse through the streets of PdL completely uncovered during dinner and whilst holiday makers would be around?  Peter, you seem to have all the answers, perhaps you can throw some light on this.
Ideal time to remove Madeleine (what other choice could there have been).  Of course he wasn't expecting to come across ten members of the same family especially down those side streets.

I don't think it is unusual to see people carrying sleeping children in such a holiday environment-children stay up later than they normally would and may fall asleep.before they get back to their accommodation. Anyone witnessing Gerry carrying a child like this (assuming he was the person witnessed) would probably assume the child was asleep, not that they would be dead.

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #129 on: April 13, 2013, 05:19:16 PM »
Also, if this was the plan, then why did Gerry decide to carry a corpse through the streets of PdL completely uncovered during dinner and whilst holiday makers would be around?  Peter, you seem to have all the answers, perhaps you can throw some light on this.
Ideal time to remove Madeleine (what other choice could there have been).  Of course he wasn't expecting to come across ten members of the same family especially down those side streets.

Greetings, peter.  I am very interested to debate with others of opposing opinion to mine.  You are positing that Gerry McCann "removed" Madeleine and was seen by the Smiths, where do you propose that he took her? Is it your opinion that Madeleine's remains were transported in the Scenic?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #130 on: April 13, 2013, 05:23:31 PM »
Why not wait until 4 in the morning when there would be less chance of bumping into people walking back from restaurants and bars?  Why not put the body into a bag or cover it up somehow?
Rigor mortis ?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #131 on: April 13, 2013, 05:31:11 PM »
Thank you Martha.

Yes, I will move my post to the right thread and delete the one above ...

Offline xtina

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #132 on: April 13, 2013, 05:33:05 PM »
no one can say for definite any way that maddie was in the apartment at all on that night...what ever time it  was

apart from the mccs of course
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #133 on: April 13, 2013, 05:37:49 PM »
Why not wait until 4 in the morning when there would be less chance of bumping into people walking back from restaurants and bars?  Why not put the body into a bag or cover it up somehow?
Rigor mortis ?

Why would this be a problem? If the body was put straight into a bag on discovery it wouldn't have been an issue would it? Also "Rigor mortis may not be perceivable in many infant and child corpses due to their smaller muscle mass" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis#cite_note-5
You assume the supposed body was found "straight" after death, yet warm. But it might not.
Infants have no muscle, we all experienced that with our babies. But Madeleine, just 4, used to ride horses and bicycles, to swim and play tennis...

Offline peter claridge

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #134 on: April 13, 2013, 05:39:45 PM »
Also, if this was the plan, then why did Gerry decide to carry a corpse through the streets of PdL completely uncovered during dinner and whilst holiday makers would be around?  Peter, you seem to have all the answers, perhaps you can throw some light on this.
Ideal time to remove Madeleine (what other choice could there have been).  Of course he wasn't expecting to come across ten members of the same family especially down those side streets.

Greetings, peter.  I am very interested to debate with others of opposing opinion to mine.  You are positing that Gerry McCann "removed" Madeleine and was seen by the Smiths, where do you propose that he took her? Is it your opinion that Madeleine's remains were transported in the Scenic?
I've absolutely no idea... how could I know?