Author Topic: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?  (Read 62426 times)

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icabodcrane

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Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2013, 04:32:42 PM »



Why  'highly likely'  ?

There was a 55 minute window  when an abduction was possible    ...  so why is a man carrying a child  at 9.15pm  ( in a holiday resort where sleepy  kids are picked up from the creche  in late evening )   highly likely  to have been an 'abductor'  ?

Would also an abductor carry a child the way Jane T describes, ie like a fireman carries a victim ?

Interesting question Anne

I've been thinking about it,  and how often throughout the day I see parents carrying young children  ...  and you know   ...  I  never see them being carried like that

I think it's the sort of carrying method a parent who is taking a sleeping child upstairs to bed might use,  to be able to lie the child back down quickly without  waking

Walking through the street though ?  no,  whether the child is sleeping or not,  that is not how they are carried

Offline peter claridge

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2013, 05:25:35 PM »
Icabodcrane posted:
"In a nutshell  then  ...  Jane Tanner might not have actually    seen  the abductor when she passed elusively by Gerry and Jez  ...  she just  thought  she did  ? "

I think what Heri is saying is that Jane probably saw an abductor, but a false memory of the events surrounding the abduction, could have been implanted in her mind.

For example, if you look at the timelines drawn up immediatley after the abduction,  you will see that there is no mention of Jane's visit at 9.45. Perhaps the persons drawing up the timelines, just assumed that Jane had seen the abductor at 9.20, and the time of 9.20 was then implanted in Jane's mind. I am not saying that this is what happened, but I am just using it as an example of how a false memory could have been implanted.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html
That's because Jane didn't visit at 9.45, she didn't visit at 9.20 either in fact the only time she left the table was after the alarm was raised.  The person writing the timelines was her partner Russell O'Brien.  The genuine meeting of Gerry and Jez was used to give Gerry an alibi for the Smith sighting, there is a reason why Jez clearly states that Tanner didn't walk by, it's because she didn't!
The fact that the timelines were provided (three different versions) is purely due to the Smith sighting.

Offline Gildas

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2013, 06:04:45 PM »
Icabodcrane posted:
"In a nutshell  then  ...  Jane Tanner might not have actually    seen  the abductor when she passed elusively by Gerry and Jez  ...  she just  thought  she did  ? "

I think what Heri is saying is that Jane probably saw an abductor, but a false memory of the events surrounding the abduction, could have been implanted in her mind.

For example, if you look at the timelines drawn up immediatley after the abduction,  you will see that there is no mention of Jane's visit at 9.45. Perhaps the persons drawing up the timelines, just assumed that Jane had seen the abductor at 9.20, and the time of 9.20 was then implanted in Jane's mind. I am not saying that this is what happened, but I am just using it as an example of how a false memory could have been implanted.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html
That's because Jane didn't visit at 9.45, she didn't visit at 9.20 either in fact the only time she left the table was after the alarm was raised.  The person writing the timelines was her partner Russell O'Brien.  The genuine meeting of Gerry and Jez was used to give Gerry an alibi for the Smith sighting, there is a reason why Jez clearly states that Tanner didn't walk by, it's because she didn't!
The fact that the timelines were provided (three different versions) is purely due to the Smith sighting.

Peter, I was using the timelines to illustrate how a false memory could be implanted accidently, rather than deliberately which was suggested elswhere. I am not claiming that this what actually happened.

There were only two versions of the timelines; one drawn up by Russell and the other by Gerry.

Could you give some evidence to support your theories. I am not saying that they are wrong, but they differ a lot from how I understand things.


« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 06:07:32 PM by Gildas »
T

AnneGuedes

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Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2013, 06:55:21 PM »
I see parents carrying young children  ...  and you know   ...  I  never see them being carried like that

I think it's the sort of carrying method a parent who is taking a sleeping child upstairs to bed might use,  to be able to lie the child back down quickly without  waking

Walking through the street though ?  no,  whether the child is sleeping or not,  that is not how they are carried
I did carry my kids this way from a car to their bed, trying not to interrupt their sleep.
This is quite tiring and it is no wonder that the Smith carrier had to desist the Tanner carrier position.
Ay, there's the rub.
Firemen carry victims the way they do when there's no muscular tension and they're like stuff dolls.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2013, 07:06:27 PM »



Why  'highly likely'  ?

There was a 55 minute window  when an abduction was possible    ...  so why is a man carrying a child  at 9.15pm  ( in a holiday resort where sleepy  kids are picked up from the creche  in late evening )   highly likely  to have been an 'abductor'  ?


Would also an abductor carry a child the way Jane T describes, ie like a fireman carries a victim ?


What do you mean by "like a fireman carries a victim"?

Bump for an answer

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2013, 07:22:49 PM »



Why  'highly likely'  ?

There was a 55 minute window  when an abduction was possible    ...  so why is a man carrying a child  at 9.15pm  ( in a holiday resort where sleepy  kids are picked up from the creche  in late evening )   highly likely  to have been an 'abductor'  ?


Would also an abductor carry a child the way Jane T describes, ie like a fireman carries a victim ?


What do you mean by "like a fireman carries a victim"?

Bump for an answer
Please read above. A first aider explained me this.

debunker

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Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2013, 07:25:11 PM »
There is what is known in English as a 'Fireman's lift' which used to be common- person carried cross shaped on the shoulder and back of the carrier, and how fire fighters now remove people to safety, carrying them cross the front of the body and shoulder.

Your words are unclear as to which one you mean.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2013, 07:45:10 PM »
There is what is known in English as a 'Fireman's lift' which used to be common- person carried cross shaped on the shoulder and back of the carrier, and how fire fighters now remove people to safety, carrying them cross the front of the body and shoulder.

Your words are unclear as to which one you mean.
The first is very useful to know because it's the only way to lift someone heavier and bigger than you.
The second, I was told, is used when a (light) victim is badly hurt (gripping must be avoided) or dead.
The Tanner carrying way could be explained if the carrier had been equipped with a car.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2013, 07:46:33 PM »
I believe that Jane Tanner saw someone being carried across the chest and shoulder.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2013, 07:50:06 PM »
I believe that Jane Tanner saw someone being carried across the chest and shoulder.
I never doubted that.

Offline peter claridge

Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2013, 10:02:07 PM »
Icabodcrane posted:
"In a nutshell  then  ...  Jane Tanner might not have actually    seen  the abductor when she passed elusively by Gerry and Jez  ...  she just  thought  she did  ? "

I think what Heri is saying is that Jane probably saw an abductor, but a false memory of the events surrounding the abduction, could have been implanted in her mind.

For example, if you look at the timelines drawn up immediatley after the abduction,  you will see that there is no mention of Jane's visit at 9.45. Perhaps the persons drawing up the timelines, just assumed that Jane had seen the abductor at 9.20, and the time of 9.20 was then implanted in Jane's mind. I am not saying that this is what happened, but I am just using it as an example of how a false memory could have been implanted.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html
That's because Jane didn't visit at 9.45, she didn't visit at 9.20 either in fact the only time she left the table was after the alarm was raised.  The person writing the timelines was her partner Russell O'Brien.  The genuine meeting of Gerry and Jez was used to give Gerry an alibi for the Smith sighting, there is a reason why Jez clearly states that Tanner didn't walk by, it's because she didn't!
The fact that the timelines were provided (three different versions) is purely due to the Smith sighting.

Peter, I was using the timelines to illustrate how a false memory could be implanted accidently, rather than deliberately which was suggested elswhere. I am not claiming that this what actually happened.

There were only two versions of the timelines; one drawn up by Russell and the other by Gerry.

Could you give some evidence to support your theories. I am not saying that they are wrong, but they differ a lot from how I understand things.
Two timelines written by Russell O’Brien  http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap19 one written by the group (minus Dianne Webster)  http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap20 .
You’ll notice that the first timeline has no mention of the 9.30 check on Madeleine or Jane Tanner’s second visit.
The sighting of the abductor by the Smith family brought forward the raising of the alarm causing the rapid writing of timelines that now had to combine an abduction scenario with some sort of childcare regime.  First thing on the agenda was to provide Gerry with his alibi for the said Smith sighting; step forward Jane Tanner or should that read the invisible Jane Tanner to provide a sighting of the abductor at the very time that she’d just passed Gerry talking to a holiday friend, this friend denies that she walked past them and of course Jane didn’t speak to them because Jane doesn’t much care for Gerry as she was to inform us later.
A knock on effect of this sighting was that any check on Madeleine after 9.15 and before the raising of the alarm would have to be carried out without noticing the now open window which at this point was the McCann’s preferred choice of entry for the abductor.
Time for a second stab at a timeline.  This one would now include a 9.30 check on Madeleine by Mathew Oldfield it would be explained that he achieved this check by entering the apartment via the unlocked patio doors thus allowing him to not observe the now open window, don’t feel too bad if you find it hard to believe that they left the door unlocked you’re in good company, Gerry himself still entered via the locked front door (as did Kate) according to his first statement!
Of course this check required that Mathew would not actually make visual contact with Madeleine so he just listened from inside the apartment though he did see the twins breathing in their cots through the bedroom door which varied greatly in its state of openness.
The story goes that Russell O’Brien was absent from the table for a lengthy period because he was attending to his ill child.  In the first two timelines he returns to the table leaving his sick child alone.  Oh dear that doesn’t read to well does it.
Enter timeline three, Jane Tanner now returns to her apartment to take over childcare duties from her partner.  How does Jane know that she needs to return? Why Mathew tells her.  Apparently on his joint check with Russell he first walks past his own apartment to Russell’s whereupon crying is heard.  He then turns round to check on his own children returns once more to Russell’s where he is informed of the child’s illness, this is conveyed to Jane on his return to the table.  You’ll recall that Russell fails to mention any of this in the first timelines.
There is one thing missing from all three timelines – Mathew’s 10.00pm check on his own children.  Mathew who up until this point has been displaying Olympic standard checking of other people’s children seems not so keen on keeping tabs on his own, still perhaps he was knackered after all that walking.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2013, 10:09:55 PM »
I believe that Jane Tanner saw someone being carried across the chest and shoulder.

So you don't believe Jane Tanner  ? 

debunker

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Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2013, 10:23:21 PM »
I believe that Jane Tanner saw someone being carried across the chest and shoulder.

So you don't believe Jane Tanner  ?

Sorry?

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2013, 10:29:44 PM »
I believe that Jane Tanner saw someone being carried across the chest and shoulder.

So you don't believe Jane Tanner  ?

Sorry?

Did I misunderstand ?  ...  I'm sorry if I did,  but when you said you believe Tanner saw someone carrying a child across the chest and shoulder,  I took it to mean in the usual way of carrying children  (   as the Smiths describes )

Did you mean you believe Tanner saw someone  carring a child horizontally,  with both arms out in front ?

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2013, 10:39:39 PM »
I believe that Jane Tanner saw someone being carried across the chest and shoulder.

So you don't believe Jane Tanner  ?

Sorry?


Did I misunderstand ?  ...  I'm sorry if I did,  but when you said you believe Tanner saw someone carrying a child across the chest and shoulder,  I took it to mean in the usual way of carrying children  (   as the Smiths describes )

Did you mean you believe Tanner saw someone  carring a child horizontally,  with both arms out in front ?

I am beginn ing to thinkyou are just being tiresome for its own sake.

REad back.