The less talked about sighting on N’battle Rd by M O’Sullivan & D Hamilton...

[Mr Apples]

What about it?

Firstly, didn’t CM hand the missing knife in to police? There was also a story about a knife being in a lawyer’s office (apologies for the vagueness here).

Re the discovery of another knife circa 2016 in the DR link I posted upthread, was it ever forensically tested?

[faithlilly]

Firstly from what you first stated - this just minutes between. These sightings were anywhere in the region of 17-20mins between. They were never inclusive of the sighting by F&W. You really need to make your mind up about this Parka - it was or it wasn't. - The trouble with these multiple areas of reasoning - they are as hot as a cat's paws on a tin roof. As was LM's testimony from the early hours of July 1st. - One needs to be consistent. And at no point have I, or anyone else claimed, that I have seen - That LM arrived at the Abbey at 7.30pm.  What has always been maintained by myself, is this time period of 5.32pm until 7.30pm when he met with the boys in the Abbey grounds. 

So let’s break those golden moments down to get as full a picture as possible of Luke’s movements from 5.32pm to 7.30pm. Luke calls Jodi’s house twice at 5.32pm and 5.40pm. He is told Jodi has left. He loiters around the bottom of his crescent and walks down the Newbattle Road to Barondale Cottages trying to see if he can see Jodi.

Three cyclists, two of who attend school with Luke, describe seeing Luke ‘ standing at an entrance to a driveway before Newbattle Abbey Crescent,’ ( Barondale Cottages has just such a driveway) on their way to the Jewel and Esk college at 5.55pm. They also describe him as wearing a bomber jacket.

Marion O’Sullivan and her partner also describe seeing a young man wearing a bomber jacket standing at a gate/path on the Newbattle Road at 6pm.

Carol Heatlie, a Scottish Executive employee, sees an individual who she identifies as Luke as she drove down Newbattle Road at about 6.05pm.

The two cyclists, discussed earlier, again see Luke 30 minutes later standing at the same place as their previous sighting as they return home.

By 7pm Luke has wondered down to Newbattle Abbey where he calls his mum to ask if Jodi has been at the house and if she arrives could she direct her to the Abbey. He also phones David High to tell him that he’s at the Abbey.

RW and LF’s estimates of the timings of their sighting vary but let’s take the earliest estimate of 5.40pm for them leaving home. The sisters-in-law drive from Newtongrange, where RW lived, to Newbattle Road which would have taken about 3 minutes, depending on traffic ( there were roadworks on the Newbattle Road that night ) giving Luke, if the cyclist’s timings are correct, only 10 to 12 minutes to get home, get showered, tell his mum that he’s murdered his girlfriend and formulate a plan to dispose of his bloodstained parka ( bloodstains that neither RW or LF saw ) and be back on the Newbattle Road for 5.55pm.

Is that really plausible?


That LM in that split moment of having just crossed Newbattle R'd was spotted once by F&W, at around 5.40pm at thee gate.


You either accept the parka here or you don't - you either agree with SL or you don't. That MK was out jogging with a parka on and that he was LM's twin - which gives us two people who looked identical on Newbattle Road at the same time. Or you twist this sighting to 'if is was to choose a Jacket I'd pick the parka' as meaning it was not. 

MK has no place in my narrative. To prove Luke was not wearing a parka I’m under no obligation to prove someone else was. Of the three eye witnesses you rely on not one said categorically that their sighting was wearing a parka...AB” not a parka, just most like”..RW “ a parka but that’s really just because of the length” and LF “ the jacket was dark green and went down to his bum”.

Of these sightings multiple times - in that small frame of time. From around 6pm until 6.15pm. -  That when he needed to be seen, to be waiting for Jodi, he was seen multiple times in and around 15-20mins, from around 6pm. That's quite some some doing is it not? To be seen that many times, twice by the same boys - yet nothing, by his reckoning from 5.32pm until nearly 6pm. - and around 6.15pm until in the boys company at 7.30pm.

He is (claiming) on this road, at it's busiest time. And by your reckoning seen by no-one until nearly 6pm, not even his own brother. And we know that he, by his admission was at the entrance of this estate, when he made the call to the Jones's, at 5.32pm. And we know by the above, by the boys from school etc - That he did not go near Barondale Cottages until between 6pm until 6.15pm. (at Barondale and the entrance of the estate) And there is no gate at these cottages visible from the Road? So please, do not attempt to tie these sightings together. It was not an entrance, pathway and a gate rolled into one. So we have no sighting by SM when he left his house, not on his drive to the entrance and upon his exit onto Newbattle R'd did he see his brother LM.  LM was not at the entrance of his estate and from his house at 5.30pm until around 6pm. And outwith this sighting by F&W there is nothing that puts him on Newbattle R'd until around 6pm.

The road may be busy but was there ever an appeal for drivers to come forward if they’d seen a youth on the Newbattle Road from 5.30pm to 6pm? If not then how will we ever know if anyone else saw Luke?

As to the layout of the approach to Barondale Cottages can I suggest the reader utilises google earth to verify what I have described.

As to SM not seeing his brother could that be because SM left the house before Luke?

*The trouble with this ambiguity of changing from a path (Mr Apples and RDP), the gate (F&W)  First there is no gate at Barondale cottage. There is a drive/ entrance. This pathway is the continuation of the Esk Walk way.This entrance is just down from the gate by F&W and between the entrance to the cottage and here. Clearly signposted with the usual walkway, green sign. As it is at the West End of RDP itself.

This tells us how busy this R'd was at this time of day. That from around 6.15pm until he was actually in the presence of these boys in the Abbey - there is nothing, not a snifter of LM. - Nothing on Newbattle R'd, nothing in the Abbey. This is not only a residential college it is also an industrial estate. Cars and people coming and going at all times. - Fluke perhaps? What is a fluke and a blessing was it not - That in that brief moment of having to cross this R'd, of needing to get rid of that clothing. He was spotted by F&W.

From this sighting by F&W, does one imagine that LM would simply doddle home for a change. He needed off this road and out of sight. He could have accessed this woodland from behind the gate. An area he knew like the back of his hand. Just down from this gate and up from Barondale cottages is the continuation of the Esk Walk way. In this wood land there are many smaller paths. There are several entrances along here, into the estate where LM stayed. And one can mock as much as one must - There is nothing better than an area of dense woodland, and a river for initial cleansing. For his feet, hands, face hair. And no one is suggesting that at this point he took the time to do lots of things, time was very much of the essence. LM needed a change of clothing, and he needed to be seen, to be seen waiting for Jodi.When one wants to talk of mere minutes - mere minutes is all that was required - this 17mins plus. To spend a little time at this river, to dash home. To access his back garden - this only becomes undoable when we have these claims, that he was soaked in blood, that he entered his house as such in this state. That he showered to remove this blood he is imagined to be dripping with - He simply was not was he? F&W in that instant picked up on no blood. They did however pick up on how dodgy he appeared. We do not even know if LM had entered his house at all? do we? - We know he needed help, and we know there was burning going on at different intervals, over the course of the evening. That outer clothing very much kept out of the house? Did his mother hand him clean clothing? - This detached home with a garage on one side and a pathway on the other? 

And for all of this one can go into Google Earth - they can see this gate (metal now), they can see the Esk walkway sign and entrance and they can see Barondale cottage and they can also see his house - the garage and the path. LM's house pretty sheltered at the front also, trees and shrubbery. It would have taken LM less than a minute to dash from this woodland to his front garden. - What is interesting however, is this sighting at this path entrance around 6pm. Back through the woods? Planking the knife? - however, those timings. We know at a brisk walk only, it takes less than 7mins to get from LM's house to this path. One can cut this time considerably when one is running, through this woodland, can they not. By quite a bit. Half the time. - And it was doable, as LM did it - he was certainly proven to have. But most came after this did it not? - that missing time frame, from around 6.15pm. Of getting the story set in motion. Of this claimed arrival home at around 9pm. Of being seen entering his house at 10pm. Of Jodi not being discovered over the course of this evening. Of it getting to a certain time then setting this search story in place. - scuppered by the meet of the search trio - on this path. As stated also. It is one thing going into a rage and killing someone in that heat of the moment - it is entirely different covering up - So many factors were already set firmly in motion - That earlier meet, only the beginning.   

And we are also forgetting all and everything else - Those lies, that story of alibi, of claiming to have been meeting with Jodi at 6pm. Of not calling back. Of in reality being on this Road for nearly 90mins waiting not 45mins. Of calling the boys back, of looking cleaner than usual. Of this isolated path he claimed she was walking and did not appear at the other end of. Of Jodi leaving at a much earlier time for this meet. And this is only a fraction of the information - of AB, of the male looking confrontational. These palms out turned beckoning the girl. Of the missing knife with the brown handle -- and so much more. And of these claims in recent times, of LM not wearing jackets, he hated them. Of the picture with multiple jackets on his bedroom door. Of wearing this thick blouson jkt on this 'sunny warm summers night' Of not just wanting any old jacket, it had to be a parka, bought due to it being in a sale. Of the cock and bull story of the knife handed into Beumont - that CM claimed was in a bag under the dog stand - of this professional search team, running their fingers through the dogs dinner, and missing the bag beside them. That this knife was a replacement bought online. Did they not have any brown handled ones in stock? - Of trying to replace these items in some vain hope that this would go unnoticed - of the vixen in the hen house. Of the police watching the Mitchells, Of being there to ask what shopping had been bought - Oh, guess what, it's a parka.  See the trouble with this Faithlilly - is the police had not asked LM about a parka jacket by this point. LM knew however he needed to replace it.

And as stated, there is so much more - tunnel vision indeed?  And we can see clearly why, he remained suspect. Why one family was believed over the other. - For one was clearly lying from the start.

More speculative nonsense. Two questions though :

A) You describe this busy, busy road where Luke, if he was there, should have been seen by many more people. Why then wasn’t the ‘Luke’ seen by RW and LF, just standing at the gate as if he had all the time in the world, seen by no one  but RW and LF? Same road, same traffic.

B)Luke would have known that he’d be seen standing at that gate at RDP, in that parka with all that traffic driving by on that busy, busy road. Why, if he had got rid of the parka, would he buy another identical one that could tie him to the murder?

[Mr Apples]

Luke would have known that he’d be seen standing at that gate at RDP, in that parka with all that traffic driving by on that busy, busy road. Why, if he had got rid of the parka, would he buy another identical one that could tie him to the murder?

I’ve been wondering about the purchase of that second parka, bought allegedly to replace the old one. It’s possible that, at the time Corinne bought it for Luke, the parka was not yet a focal point of the investigation or not yet significant, and perhaps Corinne was confident of Luke literally getting away with murder at this stage. Of course, it could’ve just been completely innocent and coincidental. There are so many coincidences, anomalies and discrepancies in this case that it renders making inferences very difficult. As I said, I’m merely at the beginning of the odyssey that is the Luke Mitchell case. I’m hoping some clarity will eventually come the more I read about it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if, paradoxically, the case becomes more nebulous and confusing the more I read about it.

[Nicholas]

More speculative nonsense. Two questions though :

A) You describe this busy, busy road where Luke, if he was there, should have been seen by many more people. Why then wasn’t the ‘Luke’ seen by RW and LF, just standing at the gate as if he had all the time in the world, seen by no one  but RW and LF? Same road, same traffic.

Was the source for this ‘busy, busy’ road Sandra Lean and the Mitchell’s?

How did RW & LF describe the road conditions at the time?

[Nicholas]

By 7pm Luke has wondered down to Newbattle Abbey where he calls his mum to ask if Jodi has been at the house and if she arrives could she direct her to the Abbey. He also phones David High to tell him that he’s at the Abbey.

Where’s the evidence to prove this is where he was

[faithlilly]

Was the source for this ‘busy, busy’ road Sandra Lean and the Mitchell’s?

How did RW & LF describe the road conditions at the time?

No, it’s Parky.

[faithlilly]

Where’s the evidence to prove this is where he was

Where’s the evidence to prove he wasn’t?

[Nicholas]

By 7pm Luke has wondered down to Newbattle Abbey where he calls his mum to ask if Jodi has been at the house and if she arrives could she direct her to the Abbey. He also phones David High to tell him that he’s at the Abbey.

Why did he phone his mum and not phone the Jones house ?

Corrine said Luke told her Jodi had left her house saying to her mum ‘save me some dinner’

⬇️

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11934.msg644079#msg644079

[faithlilly]

I’ve been wondering about the purchase of that second parka, bought allegedly to replace the old one. It’s possible that, at the time Corinne bought it for Luke, the parka was not yet a focal point of the investigation or not yet significant, and perhaps Corinne was confident of Luke literally getting away with murder at this stage. Of course, it could’ve just been completely innocent and coincidental. There are so many coincidences, anomalies and discrepancies in this case that it renders making inferences very difficult. As I said, I’m merely at the beginning of the odyssey that is the Luke Mitchell case. I’m hoping some clarity will eventually come the more I read about it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if, paradoxically, the case becomes more nebulous and confusing the more I read about it.

I think you can be sure of that Mr Apples.

The parka certainly is a conundrum. The fact that when forensically examined there was a small number of fabric traces found in the burner but none of them could be linked to any item connected to the case is odd. How can you get rid of the fabric traces from the parka but leave those connected to other items?

If there was blood all over the murder site, there was certainly enough blood to have been deposited on nearby branches, there must certainly have been blood on the soles of Luke’s shoes so why weren’t they burned in the wood burner too, if that’s what happened?

Of course it could

[Nicholas]

So let’s break those golden moments down to get as full a picture as possible of Luke’s movements from 5.32pm to 7.30pm. Luke calls Jodi’s house twice at 5.32pm and 5.40pm. He is told Jodi has left. He loiters around the bottom of his crescent and walks down the Newbattle Road to Barondale Cottages trying to see if he can see Jodi.

Three cyclists, two of who attend school with Luke, describe seeing Luke ‘ standing at an entrance to a driveway before Newbattle Abbey Crescent,’ ( Barondale Cottages has just such a driveway) on their way to the Jewel and Esk college at 5.55pm.They also describe him as wearing a bomber jacket.

Marion O’Sullivan and her partner also describe seeing a young man wearing a bomber jacket standing at a gate/path on the Newbattle Road at 6pm.

Carol Heatlie, a Scottish Executive employee, sees an individual who she identifies as Luke as she drove down Newbattle Road at about 6.05pm.

The two cyclists, discussed earlier, again see Luke 30 minutes later standing at the same place as their previous sighting as they return home.

Sandra Lean states,

‘Luke was positively identified, by some school boys who knew him, sitting on a wall at the end of his street in Newbattle, at approximately 5.45pm, and again some ten minutes later

(Source: ‘No Smoke’ p.85)

[faithlilly]

Why did he phone his mum and not phone the Jones house ?

Corrine said Luke told her Jodi had left her house saying to her mum ‘save me some dinner’

⬇️

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11934.msg644079#msg644079

This is what you posted.

‘
"save me some dinner" was said to Jodis mother, not Luke. Jodi didn't speak to Luke she texted him.
Judy (Jodis mum) went into great detail about that evening and one of the things were saying how Jodi had asked her to save her some dinner’

So are you contradicting your own post?

[Nicholas]

This is what you posted.

‘
"save me some dinner" was said to Jodis mother, not Luke. Jodi didn't speak to Luke she texted him.
Judy (Jodis mum) went into great detail about that evening and one of the things were saying how Jodi had asked her to save her some dinner’

So are you contradicting your own post?

I didn’t say it Corrine Mitchell did in 2010

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11934.msg644079#msg644079

[faithlilly]

I didn’t say it Corrine Mitchell did in 2010

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11934.msg644079#msg644079

The source of the information wasn’t Luke but JuJ so, yet again, the point that you are trying to make evades me.

[Mr Apples]

The problem I have with Parky41’s theory is Luke being able to surreptitiously get back in the house without being seen — even if he was using the erskbank (sp?) river path route. I had a look on google earth and, contrary to what Parky41 said, this isn’t a route directly to Luke’s front door and nor would it take 2 mins to reach his house once he emerged from the woodland area; it would be more like 5-10 minutes (even when running). Furthermore, even though he would be off the main road, I doubt Luke would not have been seen by his neighbours or someone in the adjacent houses from the adjacent streets in that housing scheme where he lived at the time.

I suppose there’s the possibility that Luke could’ve hid the parka jacket somewhere (away from the locus — perhaps somewhere west at the erskbank river path after the F & W sighting) and went back later that night between 2130-2230 and collected it or collected it in the next couple of days before the FLO was appointed and then disposed of it by whatever means. The reason I say disposed of the jacket after the f & w sighting is because MO & DH & boys who knew Luke all said he was wearing a bomber jacket and not a parka when they all saw him on Newbattle Road rd between 1745 and 1815.

Btw, who said that Luke was looking ‘cleaner than normal’ during 1900 hrs and 2130 that fateful night? Parky41 said this in one of his posts.

[Nicholas]

By 7pm Luke has wondered down to Newbattle Abbey where he calls his mum to ask if Jodi has been at the house and if she arrives could she direct her to the Abbey. He also phones David High to tell him that he’s at the Abbey.

Jodi appears to have left her home in a rush to meet with Luke - she hadn’t eaten

So why didn’t he phone Jodi’s house back given she’s left to meet him in such a hurry ?