Abduction is neither plausible nor logical because…

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

For the umpteenth time please take note... No one is claiming the open window proves anything

So what evidence is there to support an abduction theory? Why are you so convinced of it?

[Vertigo Swirl]

Evidence doesn’t work like that VS. You can only prove that an event happened not that it didn’t or couldn’t. Of course it is possible to take a child from an unlocked apartment when they have been left alone. However, an unlocked door and / or an open window go nowhere near proving an abduction beyond reasonable doubt.

Once again I am not asking anyone to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt, just to explain why abduction is not considered either a plausible or logical explanation for the disappearance of Madeleine Mccann   Can you?  If not, just say so and I won’t ask you again.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

I think you are totally mistaken. Just because the dogs have a 90%+ rate at detecting cadaver in test conditions does not translate to such a success rate in the field. good to see you were posting your opinion as fact....i noticed that straight away. it seems a certain mod didnt.

Why did the dogs only alert to items McCann...simple...and its nothing to do with cadaver odour.. its time.

Eddie totally ignored the McCann car and was callled back 3 times...watch the video. he was not called bvack to any other car. according to the file as recorded by the PJ...the same thing happened in the apartment.

Im not suggesting Grime is a fake....im just stating facts.

Talking of science theres a recent study from the University of california re false alerts. It says taht teh dogs are so sensitive they can pick up body language from their handler so perhaps it was Grime who was excited going into 5 a and eddie picked up on this. It says the handlers are totally unaware of cuing their dogs.

re the time taken for eddie to alert.....there is talk of dogs scenting passengers for covid at airports. it says the dogs are accurate and two dogs can handle 300 persons in under 3o minutes.. That flies in the face of the time eddie spent searching before alerting.

You and others think i trash the dogs...not true.  Gunit posted an ACPO pdf re detection dogs. it talked of victim recovery....and not one word about remnant scent. The job of these dogs is to search for bodies and body parts.

It seems to me it was Harrison and grime in 2005 who decuded that the dogs could be used as intelligence in murder and abduction cases.Nothing wrong with pushing their own agenda ...perhaps that too is unconcious.

so my aim is not to trash the dogs....but get to the truth about what happened to Maddie...quite a laudible aim and nothing wrong with challenging evidence taht took the initial investigation totally in the wrong direction...

final thought...the job of the dogs is to help recover evidence...posters need to remember that. The fact is the dogs found nothing of any use

Great post Dave. Well reasoned, logical and thoughtful - thank you. I do however take issue with some of what you say. I have watched the videos countless times and it's clear to me that Eddie scents something he's just not sure where due to a draught. Grime picks up on this and focuses Eddie but I don't see evidence of handler bias. Did Grime even know which car was hired by the McCann's?

Also, you say the dogs "found nothing of any use". I disagree - human cellular material was found. It was deemed to be of use and sent to the FSS in the UK for analysis. Proof of a match to Madeleine's DNA was inconclusive.

One last point, what opinion do you feel I am presenting as a fact? I will try to re-word it if it's badly written.

[Mr Gray]

So what evidence is there to support an abduction theory? Why are you so convinced of it?

At the moment its circumstantial. I dont see the parents being involved for lots of reasons... That only leaves abduction and woke and wandered... I did hve abduction at around 90 % but I find Wolters credible... He says he has concrete evidence and I think it unlikely he hasnt

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Once again I am not asking anyone to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt, just to explain why abduction is not considered either a plausible or logical explanation for the disappearance of Madeleine Mccann   Can you?  If not, just say so and I won’t ask you again.

For the umpteenth time it depends on the when and the how.... If it was 8:20 then no it's not plausible etc etc etc.

If you seriously believe there was an abduction then you need to tell us when and how. Taking a child that has been left in an unlocked apartment is of course possible. It's knowing the arguments for the when and the how that lets us then establish if such a scenario is plausible or logical.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

At the moment its circumstantial. I dont see the parents being involved for lots of reasons... That only leaves abduction and woke and wandered... I did hve abduction at around 90 % but I find Wolters credible... He says he has concrete evidence and I think it unlikely he hasnt

What do you think Wolters believes happened? What is it you find credible? I believe him when he says he does not have enough concrete evidence for a conviction.

[Mr Gray]

Great post Dave. Well reasoned, logical and thoughtful - thank you. I do however take issue with some of what you say. I have watched the videos countless times and it's clear to me that Eddie scents something he's just not sure where due to a draught. Grime picks up on this and focuses Eddie but I don't see evidence of handler bias. Did Grime even know which car was hired by the McCann's?

Also, you say the dogs "found nothing of any use". I disagree - human cellular material was found. It was deemed to be of use and sent to the FSS in the UK for analysis. Proof of a match to Madeleine's DNA was inconclusive.

One last point, what opinion do you feel I am presenting as a fact? I will try to re-word it if it's badly written.

Grime said he didnt know it was the mccanns car... I find that odd given the posters of Maddie plastered on it.
I found the whole search unconvincing.. Eddie called back to thee car 3 times.. Called back several  times in the apt before alerting.

Grime was hoping to start a successful business on the strength of the alerts.. I think he may have tried too hard to find evidence.... Same again in Jersey

[Vertigo Swirl]

For the umpteenth time it depends on the when and the how.... If it was 8:20 then no it's not plausible etc etc etc.

If you seriously believe there was an abduction then you need to tell us when and how. Taking a child that has been left in an unlocked apartment is of course possible. It's knowing the arguments for the when and the how that lets us then establish if such a scenario is plausible or logical.

No I don’t need to do anything.  We have been told the that abduction is illogical and implausible and it is down to those who believe that to explain why, it’s really very simple. 

[Mr Gray]

What do you think Wolters believes happened? What is it you find credible? I believe him when he says he does not have enough concrete evidence for a conviction.

From what he has said it seemd Maddie was murdered by paedophiles... And he has concrete evidence of this... But not evidence that proves it was CB but enough to convince him it was. He has several times intimated the evidence is photographic.
I find him credible because everything he says links up... No contradiction.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Grime said he didnt know it was the mccanns car... I find that odd given the posters of Maddie plastered on it.
I found the whole search unconvincing.. Eddie called back to thee car 3 times.. Called back several  times in the apt before alerting.

Grime was hoping to start a successful business on the strength of the alerts.. I think he may have tried too hard to find evidence.... Same again in Jersey

We will have to agree to disagree.... though I would say a poster doesn't lead one to know its their hire car. I find Grime to be credible and sincere, furthermore here were posters all over the place at the time.

Back to the topic we need to look at what makes the abduction theory plausible and logical.

What did you make of the jemmied shutters theory that was being discussed the very next day?

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

No I don’t need to do anything.  We have been told the that abduction is illogical and implausible and it is down to those who believe that to explain why, it’s really very simple.

They have told you certain specific abduction theories are implausible and illogical as far as I recall.

[Mr Gray]

For the umpteenth time it depends on the when and the how.... If it was 8:20 then no it's not plausible etc etc etc.

If you seriously believe there was an abduction then you need to tell us when and how. Taking a child that has been left in an unlocked apartment is of course possible. It's knowing the arguments for the when and the how that lets us then establish if such a scenario is plausible or logical.

SY and the Germans who have been there think its possible... As I recall the first investigation bby the pj thought. It possible
In between checks an abductor enters by the window and walks out the front door with maddie

[Vertigo Swirl]

They have told you certain specific abduction theories are implausible and illogical as far as I recall.

Erm no, they have not.  No sceptic I have debated with on this forum has ever conceded that it is perfectly plausible and logical to suggest that Madeleine could have been the victim of a stranger abduction from the apartment.  Not one.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

SY and the Germans who have been there think its possible... As I recall the first investigation bby the pj thought. It possible
In between checks an abductor enters by the window and walks out the front door with maddie

In between which checks? And how did they force the shutters open without forcing them open? It was stated they had been opened from the inside in the normal way.... This prompted Kate to remark on a "red herring" as best I recall.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

From what he has said it seemd Maddie was murdered by paedophiles... And he has concrete evidence of this... But not evidence that proves it was CB but enough to convince him it was. He has several times intimated the evidence is photographic.
I find him credible because everything he says links up... No contradiction.

There certainly are links made to alleged paedophiles from the first moments onwards.