"Laughable eyewitness testimony"

[Mr Apples]

Why did LM step back into the driveway at Barondale cottages if he wanted to be seen in his bomber jacket, Mr Apples?

I never said he wanted to be seen in his bomber jacket; I merely said he had time to go home and change into it immediately after the F&W sighting, and may have been spotted in it at 1800/1805 by 6 witnesses (3 bike boys, ch &  the couple mo & dh), though ah said in his first statement he was certain it wasn't a short bomber jacket and ch merely described it as 'grunge' style clothing and couldn't say what type of jacket (I think). It's messy. It's safe to say it was LM they all saw as 2 people knew him and positively id'd him ... LM was unlikely to have a twin locally, was he? And a lookalike from a different town was unlikely to be skulking around rural suburbs like  Easthouses and newbattle road?? LM had no other choice but to be seen on nb road as he was the only one to be meeting her. And, regardless of where they were meeting (wether it be at Jodi's or his), he had no choice but to cross the nb road. I personally think he met Jodi at easthouses (their most common arrangement) and hence AB's "as sure as she could possibly be that it was LM" sighting of him. He wouldn't have been strutting around like a peacock, would he? Even a psychopath like him would have been looking suspicious and out of place standing alone on that road, especially having just murdered his girlfriend. He was on high alert, and possibly planking his hacket when CH saw him at that entrance as if he was hiding. All those eyewitnesses who didn't know him said he looked up to no good, and one of the pushbike boys who did know him said seeing him standing there doing nothing was 'weird'. The 2 boys who knew him said they very well could have been getting mixed up as they had seen him wearing his bomber jacket in school often. As for MO & DH, we'll just have to wait and see what their transcripts reveal. They might've have been mistaken about what a Bomber jacket actually is. I admit, the eyewitness testimony on the NB road after the F&W sighting is messy. It was LM they all saw, though -- and he did wear all items of clothes described by them, before the murder.

[Joe Blogs]

I never said he wanted to be seen in his bomber jacket; I merely said he had time to go home and change into it immediately after the F&W sighting, and may have been spotted in it at 1800/1805 by 6 witnesses (3 bike boys, ch &  the couple mo & dh), though ah said in his first statement he was certain it wasn't a short bomber jacket and ch merely described it as 'grunge' style clothing and couldn't say what type of jacket (I think). It's messy. It's safe to say it was LM they all saw as 2 people knew him and positively id'd him ... LM was unlikely to have a twin locally, was he? And a lookalike from a different town was unlikely to be skulking around rural suburbs like  Easthouses and newbattle road?? LM had no other choice but to be seen on nb road as he was the only one to be meeting her. And, regardless of where they were meeting (wether it be at Jodi's or his), he had no choice but to cross the nb road. I personally think he met Jodi at easthouses (their most common arrangement) and hence AB's "as sure as she could possibly be that it was LM" sighting of him. He wouldn't have been strutting around like a peacock, would he? Even a psychopath like him would have been looking suspicious and out of place standing alone on that road, especially having just murdered his girlfriend. He was on high alert, and possibly planking his hacket when CH saw him at that entrance as if he was hiding. All those eyewitnesses who didn't know him said he looked up to no good, and one of the pushbike boys who did know him said seeing him standing there doing nothing was 'weird'. The 2 boys who knew him said they very well could have been getting mixed up as they had seen him wearing his bomber jacket in school often. As for MO & DH, we'll just have to wait and see what their transcripts reveal. They might've have been mistaken about what a Bomber jacket actually is. I admit, the eyewitness testimony on the NB road after the F&W sighting is messy. It was LM they all saw, though -- and he did wear all items of clothes described by them, before the murder.

How do you think LM got to Newbattle Rd from the murder scene, Mr Apples?
I mean what route did he take to get to the gate where Flem/walsh saw him?
In fact, what was LM planned route home after the murder?

[faithlilly]

Like I said, GE's estimated time of arrival back home with a slow puncture at 1815 could've been accurate and thus nullifying his 40-60 mins claim earlier in his testimony (meaning LM potentially could've had 50-55 mins to cover his tracks before meeting the boys in the abbey at 1905). It would've been interesting to read his answer if ADT asked him what LM was wearing the second time he passed him (though I suspect GE would've mentioned different clothing without being prompted by ADT).

Different folk have different recollections. I agree -- it was likely LM they all saw.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. He possibly went home & changed into the bomber, knowing full well that what he was wearing underneath was uncontaminated as the parka had taken the brunt of the contamination.

LM knew most likely he'd been spotted at the EH end of RDP wearing the long parka. He probably thought it was best to try and confuse eyewitnesses with what he was wearing, especially at the Newbattle road end of RDP. After all, he'd just murdered his girlfriend. Unluckily for him, F&W had seen the same youth as AB in that long parka/fishing style jacket -- the same jacket he was no doubt wearing while he was murdering Jodi in that woodland strip at 1715 (which cyclist Leonard Kelly heard).

Let’s look at this MA.

“ Like I said, GE's estimated time of arrival back home with a slow puncture at 1815 could've been accurate and thus nullifying his 40-60 mins claim earlier in his testimony (meaning LM potentially could've had 50-55 mins to cover his tracks before meeting the boys in the abbey at 1905).”

Now Grant Elliot initially saw Luke around 6pm. He then cycled to Jewel and Esk college which would have taken him around 8 minutes at a steady pace. At the college he finds that he has a puncture so that’s probably five minutes give or take to check the tyre, give it a kick and decide to go home. Of course we don’t know what he did at the college or how many minutes that took. He said that he biked some of the way and walked the rest. It takes 19 minutes to walk from the college to Newbattle Road so it must have taken him around 14 minutes to get to where he saw Luke for the second time. We don’t know where he lived but the journey there would obviously have added some time to his journey. In conclusion Elliot couldn’t have possibly got home at 6.15 and his estimate of seeing Luke around 30-40 minutes after his first sighting seems spot on.

[faithlilly]

Like I said, GE's estimated time of arrival back home with a slow puncture at 1815 could've been accurate and thus nullifying his 40-60 mins claim earlier in his testimony (meaning LM potentially could've had 50-55 mins to cover his tracks before meeting the boys in the abbey at 1905). It would've been interesting to read his answer if ADT asked him what LM was wearing the second time he passed him (though I suspect GE would've mentioned different clothing without being prompted by ADT).

Different folk have different recollections. I agree -- it was likely LM they all saw.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. He possibly went home & changed into the bomber, knowing full well that what he was wearing underneath was uncontaminated as the parka had taken the brunt of the contamination.

LM knew most likely he'd been spotted at the EH end of RDP wearing the long parka. He probably thought it was best to try and confuse eyewitnesses with what he was wearing, especially at the Newbattle road end of RDP. After all, he'd just murdered his girlfriend. Unluckily for him, F&W had seen the same youth as AB in that long parka/fishing style jacket -- the same jacket he was no doubt wearing while he was murdering Jodi in that woodland strip at 1715 (which cyclist Leonard Kelly heard).

Again you say this

“ Yes, that's what I'm saying. He possibly went home & changed into the bomber, knowing full well that what he was wearing underneath was uncontaminated as the parka had taken the brunt of the contamination.

LM knew most likely he'd been spotted at the EH end of RDP wearing the long parka. He probably thought it was best to try and confuse eyewitnesses with what he was wearing, especially at the Newbattle road end of RDP. After all, he'd just murdered his girlfriend. Unluckily for him, F&W had seen the same youth as AB in that long parka/fishing style jacket -- the same jacket he was no doubt wearing while he was murdering Jodi in that woodland strip at 1715 (which cyclist Leonard Kelly heard).”

Firstly he could have no had idea what might have transferred to the rest of his clothes while committing this most brutal of murders. Do you really think that he would have burned the parka yet taken the chance that there was contamination underneath? Even the tiniest drop of blood could have seen him charged with murder.

I’m still struggling with your second paragraph. Why would Luke even feel he needed to confuse eyewitnesses? Surely he was trying to set up an alibi? Surely what he would have done is ditch the parka and return to the Newbattle Road in order to have as many people as possible identify him in clothes that didn’t include a parka?
By changing outfits several times surely he would have made it less likely that his contrived alibi worked as passers-by may have thought that he was different youths merely by his clothes?

[Mr Apples]

How do you think LM got to Newbattle Rd from the murder scene, Mr Apples?
I mean what route did he take to get to the gate where Flem/walsh saw him?
In fact, what was LM planned route home after the murder?

I don't think he had a 'planned' route home. I think he killed Jodi in a fit of rage and proceeded directly down that woodland strip, which, by no coincidence, led him exactly in line with that gate on NB rd he was spotted at by F&W at approx. 1740. He could've went down the field to his right, but it exposed him too much (especially to the moped boys JF & GD) or to the left, where the roan's dyke path could've potentially exposed him to joggers, cyclists or dog walkers on that path; the woodland strip offered him the sanctuary he needed.

[Joe Blogs]

I don't think he had a 'planned' route home. I think he killed Jodi in a fit of rage and proceeded directly down that woodland strip, which, by no coincidence, led him exactly in line with that gate on NB rd he was spotted at by F&W at approx. 1740. He could've went down the field to his right, but it exposed him too much (especially to the moped boys JF & GD) or to the left, where the roan's dyke path could've potentially exposed him to joggers, cyclists or dog walkers on that path; the woodland strip offered him the sanctuary he needed.

Nothing planned, fit of rage, yet planking clothes before hand,  Mr Apples? Oh well!
Anyway, yes I agree the woodland gave him sanctuary, so why not use it most of the way home?
Why not use the woods right down to the entrance of Newbattle Abbey Crescent and then cross over?
If guilty, why did LM decide to emerge onto Newbattle Abbey Rd beside the entrance to RDP?
Did Luke want to be seen walking home in his parka? Must have surely?
Lukes actions simply dont make any sense from a guilty point of view, Mr Apples.
From an innocence point of view its quite simple though, Luke walked onto Newbattle Road after he had his supper where he was seen by all witnesses in his school clothes and bomber jacket!

[faithlilly]

Nothing planned, fit of rage, yet planking clothes before hand,  Mr Apples? Oh well!
Anyway, yes I agree the woodland gave him sanctuary, so why not use it most of the way home?
Why not use the woods right down to the entrance of Newbattle Abbey Crescent and then cross over?
If guilty, why did LM decide to emerge onto Newbattle Abbey Rd beside the entrance to RDP?
Did Luke want to be seen walking home in his parka? Must have surely?
Lukes actions simply dont make any sense from a guilty point of view, Mr Apples.
From an innocence point of view its quite simple though, Luke walked onto Newbattle Road after he had his supper where he was seen by all witnesses in his school clothes and bomber jacket!

Occam’s razor?

[Joe Blogs]

Occam’s razor?

Exactly, Faith!
All the guilt scenarios put forward are extremely complicated and downright illogical.
Luke described as looking suspicious, keeping his head down, stepping into the drive at Barondale cottages, etc,
well why the hell then did he walk the entire length of Newbattle Rd to get home if he didn't want to be seen? Makes no sense to me!
And it gets worse, he even loiters for the best part of an hour on Newbattle Road, before going home allegedly, although there is no actual evidence that Luke went home at all before meeting the boys at the Abbey!

[Mr Apples]

Nothing planned, fit of rage, yet planking clothes before hand,  Mr Apples? Oh well!
Anyway, yes I agree the woodland gave him sanctuary, so why not use it most of the way home?
Why not use the woods right down to the entrance of Newbattle Abbey Crescent and then cross over?
If guilty, why did LM decide to emerge onto Newbattle Abbey Rd beside the entrance to RDP?
Did Luke want to be seen walking home in his parka? Must have surely?
Lukes actions simply dont make any sense from a guilty point of view, Mr Apples.
From an innocence point of view its quite simple though, Luke walked onto Newbattle Road after he had his supper where he was seen by all witnesses in his school clothes and bomber jacket!

The woodland strip never offered him a camoflauged route home. It was, quite simply, the safest route home at that point as it was not out in the open. The woodland strip never took him anywhere near newbattle abbey crescent. What you on about? The woodland strip took him opposite that gate, hence why he was spotted at it at 1740ish by F&W looking 'suspicious'. Why would he have wanted to be spotted in his parka on nb rd at 1740, when he'd been spotted in it at 1655 at the opposite end of the road -- the place where he normally met Jodi???!! He had no choice but to be spotted in it at that point, as that's what he chose to wear. He only decided to expose the shirt or bomber as he'd already been seen twice in that parka jacket between 1655 & 1740.

[Joe Blogs]

The woodland strip never offered him a camoflauged route home. It was, quite simply, the safest route home at that point as it was not out in the open. The woodland strip never took him anywhere near newbattle abbey crescent. What you on about? The woodland strip took him opposite that gate, hence why he was spotted at it at 1740ish by F&W looking 'suspicious'. Why would he have wanted to be spotted in his parka on nb rd at 1740, when he'd been spotted in it at 1655 at the opposite end of the road -- the place where he normally met Jodi???!! He had no choice but to be spotted in it at that point, as that's what he chose to wear. He only decided to expose the shirt or bomber as he'd already been seen twice in that parka jacket between 1655 & 1740.

Ha ha! No of course Luke didn't want to be seen in his parka if guilty, Mr Apples, so why parade up and down Newbattle Road in it, thats the whole point!
Are you saying that using NB Road was the only way home from the murder scene, that no other routes were available?
I thought LM suggested to the police that Jodi may have climbed over the V break and taken a short cut through the field? Scott Forbes also suggested a route which I believe came out beside Newbattle Abbey collage, I will check!
It is quite difficult to form an opinion of the best route for LM to take home from the murder scene when one hasn't visited the area, I may have to do this some day and check out the possible routes myself.
Have you visited the area and checked the routes out, Mr Apples? If so, do you maintain that walking down Newbattle Rd was the only option available for Luke Mitchell to get home?

[Mr Apples]

Ha ha! No of course Luke didn't want to be seen in his parka if guilty, Mr Apples, so why parade up and down Newbattle Road in it, thats the whole point!
Are you saying that using NB Road was the only way home from the murder scene, that no other routes were available?
I thought LM suggested to the police that Jodi may have climbed over the V break and taken a short cut through the field? Scott Forbes also suggested a route which I believe came out beside Newbattle Abbey collage, I will check!
It is quite difficult to form an opinion of the best route for LM to take home from the murder scene when one hasn't visited the area, I may have to do this some day and check out the possible routes myself.
Have you visited the area and checked the routes out, Mr Apples? If so, do you maintain that walking down Newbattle Rd was the only option available for Luke Mitchell to get home?

I haven't been to the locus, no (and I don't come from or live in Dalkeith or surrounding areas). I have seen enough from Google Maps and YouTube videos to get a feel for the area and terrain. LM had no choice but to cross the NB road that day - both on his outbound journey to meet Jodi and on his return journey home as the main arrangement between them was that LM would go and meet her in Easthouses (Jodi was forbidden from using the path alone by her mother) and then they'd either muck around there, or go to Woodburn, Mayfield, or back to Newbattle, etc. There have been discussions regarding wether Jodi sometimes walked the path alone regardless, but that's a separate argument altogether. Anyway, Jodi had been grounded in mid May 03 for skipping school and generally wasn't allowed out before 1800 (I believe LM regularly went over to her house during the grounding, after dinner). The grounding had petered out somewhat in the few weeks prior to June 30th, where Jodi would do some household chores in exchange for a more relaxed grounding where she was generally allowed out at 1700 instead of 1800 (I believe this is detailed on p54-57 in IB). Judith unexpectedly lifted the grounding completely on June 30th, so Jodi texted LM at 1634 to meet up (they exchanged texts between 1634-1638, but the contents of those texts were never retrieved, both from LM's phone and Judith's phone, as they'd been deleted). Now, why would Jodi text LM to say she was allowed out at that moment? As I said, LM went over to get her during her grounding and relaxed grounding, so presumably they met up ASAP regardless of what they were doing between 1634-1638? Neither LM nor Jodi had any commitments at that time, including dinner. LM phoned the speaking clock at 1654 and, as highlighted in court, he was invariably outside when he phone the service (ie, during school or walking to school). I'm suggesting they had arranged to meet right away. Even before 1700. AB saw him having a confrontation with Jodi at the Easthouses end of RDP at 1655 (like I said, AB didn't know them at all and said she was as sure as she could be that it was him, and that she was taken aback by just how much the boy she saw with the girl looked like the photo of LM in the newspaper). (And remember, SM didn't corroborate the alibi of LM being at home between 1650-1715, so where was he??? It really all adds up, doesn't it? That the one guy Jodi texted to meet up with wasn't home and was spotted at easthouses with a girl matching Jodi's description at the time Jodi left her house to meet him, and was then spotted alone and looking suspicious on nb rd some 45 minutes later, at 1740ish?) Approximately 15 mins later, at roughly 1710/1715, cyclist LK heard those disturbing strangling noises coming from behind that wall in that woodland strip that made him slow down to a standstill and listen. LM phones the Jones landline at 1732 & 1740, the latter call being answered by AO who told LM Jodi had already left to meet him. About a minute later, LM is seen by F&W at a gate on NB rd, alone and looking suspicious (like AB, the women were positive it was LM they saw). The same gate that LM said he never went as far as? On the same road that AH said no other pedestrian was on other than LM? LM didn't have a twin? Do you see a vivid picture emerging here??

Anyway, that gate he was spotted at is straight down from the locus. It would be the logical route to travel if one needed cover and to save time. The field to his right was too exposed and JF &GD were on or around that field on a noisy motorbike at that time (according to witnesses & Leonard Kelly himself said he heard it in the distance as he travelled east along the path at 1710/1715). Likewise, the RDP to the left of the locus was too exposed also (cyclists, joggers, dog walkers, etc). I suspect LM would've went straight home  had F&W not seen him, but decided then to hide periodically in the woodlands behind that gate, taking off the parka and wearing only the German army shirt. Or maybe he did go home quickly after the f&w sighting and change into the bomber (with the German army shirt underneath) and be back on the nb road again for 1800/1805. The thing is, LM did have all these items of clothing to wear at the time. Maybe he was looking suspicious as he was changing jackets/ planking jackets in those woodlands behind the gate/barondale cottages - both of which were only a 5 minute brisk walk away from his house in newbattle abbey crescent

[Kenmair]

I haven't been to the locus, no (and I don't come from or live in Dalkeith or surrounding areas).... LM had no choice but to cross the NB road that day The thing is, LM did have all these items of clothing to wear at the time. Maybe he was looking suspicious as he was changing jackets/ planking jackets in those woodlands behind the gate/barondale cottages - both of which were only a 5 minute brisk walk away from his house in newbattle abbey crescent

JB is well aware of the locus and is trying to create doubt as usual. Perhaps examine the Mitchell's alibis in the same depth as the parka/bomber jacket palaver. As you say, LM had both and even could have worn one under the other. There's no doubt he was spotted at both ends of the RDP 4.55pm onwards. His only alibi was his mother. His brother didn't see him, LM didn't see his brother but his mother saw them both??

There is also a strong chance he could have gone down the Barrondale cottages lane to emerge in NAC rather than the main route in. It's all hypothetical though and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Most killers exact movements will be unknown to all but themselves.

Pic below of gate beyond lamp post on far side of NBR with likely exit point of path (parallel to RDP) below = the most obvious route to cross NBR. It's on a slight blind bend so it's possible he crossed thinking he was clear then got caught out looking shifty at the gate. Was it them that saw him ruffling his hair left-handed?

[faithlilly]

JB is well aware of the locus and is trying to create doubt as usual. Perhaps examine the Mitchell's alibis in the same depth as the parka/bomber jacket palaver. As you say, LM had both and even could have worn one under the other. There's no doubt he was spotted at both ends of the RDP 4.55pm onwards. His only alibi was his mother. His brother didn't see him, LM didn't see his brother but his mother saw them both??

There is also a strong chance he could have gone down the Barrondale cottages lane to emerge in NAC rather than the main route in. It's all hypothetical though and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Most killers exact movements will be unknown to all but themselves.

Pic below of gate beyond lamp post on far side of NBR with likely exit point of path (parallel to RDP) below = the most obvious route to cross NBR. It's on a slight blind bend so it's possible he crossed thinking he was clear then got caught out looking shifty at the gate. Was it them that saw him ruffling his hair left-handed?

Thank you for the photo. I posted similar myself some time ago. You can see from the first photo that the murderer, if he was trying to conceal himself, need only cross straight across the road, slide between the wall and the fence and he would have been hidden amongst the foliage. There was no need for him to walk to the gate. In fact he would have known that by doing so he significantly increased the risk of being seen. Not only that but standing at the gate looking suspicious’. Only an absolute numpty would believe that this is how a murderer, only minutes after killing his victim, would act.

[Kenmair]

Thank you for the photo. I posted similar myself some time ago. You can see from the first photo that the murderer, if he was trying to conceal himself, need only cross straight across the road, slide between the wall and the fence and he would have been hidden amongst the foliage. There was no need for him to walk to the gate. In fact he would have known that by doing so he significantly increased the risk of being seen. Not only that but standing at the gate looking suspicious’. Only an absolute numpty would believe that this is how a murderer, only minutes after killing his victim, would act.

Between the end of the wall and the gate is a steep embankment leading down to a stream and culvert - it's impossible to walk along unseen. The gate is the nearest space he could have moved to be out of sight. As I said, who knows his exact movements. 10 seconds later and he would have been out of sight - maybe he heard the car and froze, who knows. A rookie mistake.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Thank you for the photo. I posted similar myself some time ago. You can see from the first photo that the murderer, if he was trying to conceal himself, need only cross straight across the road, slide between the wall and the fence and he would have been hidden amongst the foliage. There was no need for him to walk to the gate. In fact he would have known that by doing so he significantly increased the risk of being seen. Not only that but standing at the gate looking suspicious’. Only an absolute numpty would believe that this is how a murderer, only minutes after killing his victim, would act.

FYI there is no prescribed set way a murderer would act minutes after committing a murder.