"Laughable eyewitness testimony"

[faithlilly]

Between the end of the wall and the gate is a steep embankment leading down to a stream and culvert - it's impossible to walk along unseen. The gate is the nearest space he could have moved to be out of sight. As I said, who knows his exact movements. 10 seconds later and he would have been out of sight - maybe he heard the car and froze, who knows. A rookie mistake.

Absolute nonsense.

10 seconds and he could have been seen by a dozen cars. Better to scramble crouched through a stream or culvert than be seen.

[Kenmair]

Absolute nonsense.

10 seconds and he could have been seen by a dozen cars. Better to scramble crouched through a stream or culvert than be seen.

It's a sheer drop into the stream, possibly 15 feet - I've seen it as it's my photos. It would be pointless to descend as he'd have to come back up at the raised culvert near the gate seconds later as the culvert pipe is too small and he'd need climbing gear to get back up from the stream - completely illogical and again it's a hypothetical argument. It was LM.

Also, it's a quiet B road - maybe 1 or 2 cars every minute.

[Joe Blogs]

JB is well aware of the locus and is trying to create doubt as usual. Perhaps examine the Mitchell's alibis in the same depth as the parka/bomber jacket palaver. As you say, LM had both and even could have worn one under the other. There's no doubt he was spotted at both ends of the RDP 4.55pm onwards. His only alibi was his mother. His brother didn't see him, LM didn't see his brother but his mother saw them both??

There is also a strong chance he could have gone down the Barrondale cottages lane to emerge in NAC rather than the main route in. It's all hypothetical though and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Most killers exact movements will be unknown to all but themselves.

Pic below of gate beyond lamp post on far side of NBR with likely exit point of path (parallel to RDP) below = the most obvious route to cross NBR. It's on a slight blind bend so it's possible he crossed thinking he was clear then got caught out looking shifty at the gate. Was it them that saw him ruffling his hair left-handed?

Hi Ken, you may be just the fellow to educate Mr Apples and myself about the available routes from the locus to Lukes house, or at least the entrance to Newbattle Abbey Crescent?
I mean, I know Luke [if guilty of course] had to cross Newbattle Road at some point to get home, but was down by the gate near to the entrance to RDP the best/only place to do this?
Couldn't Luke have continued through the trees on the RDP side of the road in the direction of the Abbey?
As I was saying to Mr Apples, Luke pointed out to the police a route from the V heading up towards the Abbey I believe, which he suggested Jodi may have taken that day. Do you know this route,Ken? Have you traveled all the possible routes from the locus to Newbattle Abbey Crescent?
What i'm asking is, why did LM choose to cross the road onto Newbattle Road so far away from the entrance to his estate, what was his plan?
And what do you mean that Luke crossed the road thinking he was in the clear then got caught? Caught in what sense?
Peter also mentions this in the opening post of this topic, that Luke was caught like a deer in headlights or some such description, what did he mean?
Flemying and Walsh didn't mention Luke crossing the road did they? So what was he 'caught' doing?
Surely the only damaging thing that Luke could be caught doing was crossing the road, yes? What else??
Is there a suggestion that he was trying to climb over the gate and get into the woods for some reason? Mr Apples keeps talking of planked clothes, which would undoubtably mean the killing was indeed planned, yet Mr Apples also suggests the killing took place in a fit of rage.
And as Faith pointed out, if Luke didn't go home and wash first then he would simply contaminate any clothing that he changed into surely?
This planking clothes and changing clothes on the way home is very far fetched, he still had to get the parka home to burn anyway and besides 'all' his clothing would end up getting contaminated as we have said!
This is why the guilt scenarios get so complicated, trying to explain every sighting of LM in various clothing!
Yet, to be honest, it is more than likely that all the witnesses on Newbattle Road saw LM in the same clothing, there simply wasn't enough time for LM to go home and change in between sightings, and if he did he certainly didnt have time to shower, so again contamination would be an issue.
Anyway, can you enlighten us with your knowledge of the locus and surrounding area, Ken, and the possible routes  LM could have taken to get home from the locus?

[Kenmair]

Anyway, can you enlighten us with your knowledge of the locus and surrounding area, Ken, and the possible routes  LM could have taken to get home from the locus?

As I said earlier scenarios are hypothetical though and don't prove or disprove anything. Most killers exact movements will be unknown to all but themselves. No one can prove the exact route he took but he certainly wouldn't have dropped down a steep embankment to climb back up a few seconds later. I'm satisfied it was him and that he's guilty mainly due to the Mitchell's alibi, or lack of.

[Joe Blogs]

As I said earlier scenarios are hypothetical though and don't prove or disprove anything. Most killers exact movements will be unknown to all but themselves. No one can prove the exact route he took but he certainly wouldn't have dropped down a steep embankment to climb back up a few seconds later. I'm satisfied it was him and that he's guilty mainly due to the Mitchell's alibi, or lack of.

Yes, we understand you're stance, Ken, and you are entitled to it, but you must know that some will always doubt LM guilt! Its just that kind of case!

[faithlilly]

It's a sheer drop into the stream, possibly 15 feet - I've seen it as it's my photos. It would be pointless to descend as he'd have to come back up at the raised culvert near the gate seconds later as the culvert pipe is too small and he'd need climbing gear to get back up from the stream - completely illogical and again it's a hypothetical argument. It was LM.

Also, it's a quiet B road - maybe 1 or 2 cars every minute.

I’d be interested to see the photos.

[faithlilly]

As I said earlier scenarios are hypothetical though and don't prove or disprove anything. Most killers exact movements will be unknown to all but themselves. No one can prove the exact route he took but he certainly wouldn't have dropped down a steep embankment to climb back up a few seconds later. I'm satisfied it was him and that he's guilty mainly due to the Mitchell's alibi, or lack of.

You are absolutely right, we can’t prove or disprove anything but what we do know that even if the gate was the only means of entry to the foliage beyond no killer would stand at the gate giving any passer-by the opportunity to identify him. That would be suicide.

Luke’s alibi is his mother and his brother. His brother forgot when giving his first interview that he had gone to a friend’s house to fix his car. What makes you disbelieve that he wasn’t also able to forget who was in the house that evening?

Corrine lied about her son’s age at the tattooists. Judith lied about her son to his mental health care team. Does that mean that we can’t believe either’s evidence?

[Mr Apples]

JB is well aware of the locus and is trying to create doubt as usual. Perhaps examine the Mitchell's alibis in the same depth as the parka/bomber jacket palaver. As you say, LM had both and even could have worn one under the other. There's no doubt he was spotted at both ends of the RDP 4.55pm onwards. His only alibi was his mother. His brother didn't see him, LM didn't see his brother but his mother saw them both??

There is also a strong chance he could have gone down the Barrondale cottages lane to emerge in NAC rather than the main route in. It's all hypothetical though and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Most killers exact movements will be unknown to all but themselves.

Pic below of gate beyond lamp post on far side of NBR with likely exit point of path (parallel to RDP) below = the most obvious route to cross NBR. It's on a slight blind bend so it's possible he crossed thinking he was clear then got caught out looking shifty at the gate. Was it them that saw him ruffling his hair left-handed?

Thanks for the pics, KM. I don't think he emerged down that path (the one with that yellow gate at the end). I think he kept more to his right as he left the locus (travelling in a northwesterly direction) and emerged down a quite steep embankment, almost exactly opposite that steel gate with the six bars he was spotted at by F&W (I think it was a wooden gate at the time). Is that a possible route , KM? I don't know the terrain at all, but I take it you do and live nearby? Also, behind that steel gate with the six bars ... it seems that it is not possible to walk in a westerly direction (or behind it) as it's really steep & overgrown with a big stone wall behind it? I can't make out the terrain behind it on Google maps. Also, in your other pic (the one at the steel gate, looking south towards RDP) it seems the terrain has changed at the left hand side where the rdp is? Of course, my eyes may ve failing me here.

[Vertigo Swirl]

You are absolutely right, we can’t prove or disprove anything but what we do know that even if the gate was the only means of entry to the foliage beyond no killer would stand at the gate giving any passer-by the opportunity to identify him. That would be suicide.

Luke’s alibi is his mother and his brother. His brother forgot when giving his first interview that he had gone to a friend’s house to fix his car. What makes you disbelieve that he wasn’t also able to forget who was in the house that evening?

Corrine lied about her son’s age at the tattooists. Judith lied about her son to his mental health care team. Does that mean that we can’t believe either’s evidence?

says the woman who believes a father would carry his dead daughter’s uncovered corpse through a holiday resort at the same time his wife raised the alarm that she was missing.  Incredible lack of consistency there!

[Mr Apples]

Thank you for the photo. I posted similar myself some time ago. You can see from the first photo that the murderer, if he was trying to conceal himself, need only cross straight across the road, slide between the wall and the fence and he would have been hidden amongst the foliage. There was no need for him to walk to the gate. In fact he would have known that by doing so he significantly increased the risk of being seen. Not only that but standing at the gate looking suspicious’. Only an absolute numpty would believe that this is how a murderer, only minutes after killing his victim, would act.

Your discourse is farcical at the best of times, but this takes the cake!   

LM may have been an intelligent boy, able to think on his feet, but he wasn't some child criminal mastermind. How would a fledgling killer, a fourteen-year-old boy at that, act?

[Kenmair]

Thanks for the pics, KM. I don't think he emerged down that path (the one with that yellow gate at the end). I think he kept more to his right as he left the locus (travelling in a northwesterly direction) and emerged down a quite steep embankment, almost exactly opposite that steel gate with the six bars he was spotted at by F&W (I think it was a wooden gate at the time). Is that a possible route , KM? I don't know the terrain at all, but I take it you do and live nearby? Also, behind that steel gate with the six bars ... it seems that it is not possible to walk in a westerly direction (or behind it) as it's really steep & overgrown with a big stone wall behind it? I can't make out the terrain behind it on Google maps. Also, in your other pic (the one at the steel gate, looking south towards RDP) it seems the terrain has changed at the left hand side where the rdp is? Of course, my eyes may ve failing me here.

Yes, it used to be wooden gate and yes it would be possible to descend further down to the right and directly opposite the gate, although it's quite a steep terrace. Unlikely he ascended behind the gate, it's very steep and overgrown and at the top are lots of walking trails for dog walkers so unlikely he'd go there. I don't think the NB end of RDP has changed much as far as I can recall.

Yes I know the area well which is why it's peculiar to hear people say he couldn't have done it in such a short time frame. It's a very small area, 7 mins from LM's to RDP, then 10-11 mins to EH end of RDP. Even less for a young lad.

[Mr Apples]

Luke’s alibi is his mother and his brother. His brother forgot when giving his first interview that he had gone to a friend’s house to fix his car. What makes you disbelieve that he wasn’t also able to forget who was in the house that evening.

Not that old chestnut again! *Sighs*

You know fine well that it was impossible for two people to have been in that two-storey detached house at the same time and not be able to hear or see each other, especially if one of them was making dinner. I'll remind you of SM's exact words verbatim in his testimony that unequivocally proved his younger brother wasn't in the house making dinner between 1650-1715: "I genuinely don't remember seeing my brother that day. He could have been there."  And remember, this was said after he'd changed his statement three times previously, and one of his statements was, as he admitted to police, coached by his mother Corinne (ie, that he had seen LM in the kitchen mashing tatties, spoke to him, and saying LM seemed happy). The alibi, as has been proven on here and elsewhere many times previously, was a complete mess. A joke. It was dismantled by ADT in court with ease, inviting the jury to arrive at the same conclusion: the alibi was concocted and LM wasn't at home between 1650-1715.

[faithlilly]

Your discourse is farcical at the best of times, but this takes the cake!   

LM may have been an intelligent boy, able to think on his feet, but he wasn't some child criminal mastermind. How would a fledgling killer, a fourteen-year-old boy at that, act?

I don’t think I saw your answer to my post regarding Grant Elliot and the time of his arrival home. Did you post one?

[faithlilly]

Not that old chestnut again! *Sighs*

You know fine well that it was impossible for two people to have been in that two-storey detached house at the same time and not be able to hear or see each other, especially if one of them was making dinner. I'll remind you of SM's exact words verbatim in his testimony that unequivocally proved his younger brother wasn't in the house making dinner between 1650-1715: "I genuinely don't remember seeing my brother that day. He could have been there."  And remember, this was said after he'd changed his statement three times previously, and one of his statements was, as he admitted to police, coached by his mother Corinne (ie, that he had seen LM in the kitchen mashing tatties, spoke to him, and saying LM seemed happy). The alibi, as has been proven on here and elsewhere many times previously, was a complete mess. A joke. It was dismantled by ADT in court with ease, inviting the jury to arrive at the same conclusion: the alibi was concocted and LM wasn't at home between 1650-1715.

You say coached, Shane said reminded.

Why do you accept that Shane was unable to remember one thing and not another?

Shane said ‘he could have been there’ meaning he believed that it would be possible, even in that two storey house.
It appears that you believe the parts of Shane’s testimony that suits.

[Joe Blogs]

Yes, it used to be wooden gate and yes it would be possible to descend further down to the right and directly opposite the gate, although it's quite a steep terrace. Unlikely he ascended behind the gate, it's very steep and overgrown and at the top are lots of walking trails for dog walkers so unlikely he'd go there. I don't think the NB end of RDP has changed much as far as I can recall.

Yes I know the area well which is why it's peculiar to hear people say he couldn't have done it in such a short time frame. It's a very small area, 7 mins from LM's to RDP, then 10-11 mins to EH end of RDP. Even less for a young lad.

Can I ask you one question, Ken ? and this applies to Mr Apples too!
What route do you think LM took to get to the Easthouses end of RDP when he was 'allegedly' seen by Andrina Bryson?