"Laughable eyewitness testimony"

[Mr Apples]

Here's a very important point to remember about this case:

Jodi was grounded at that point (on 30.06.03) until 1800. Her grounding began in May 2003 for dogging school. Judith unexpectedly lifted her grounding when she arrived home from school on 30.06.03. Jodi texted LM at 1634 to say she was allowed out before 1800; they were going to be meeting after 1800 that night anyway, so she obviously wanted to meet him before this; is it a coincidence that on the day Jodi wanted to meet with Luke before 1800 a woman uknown to he & Jodi saw a youth she was 'as sure as she could be was him" at 1655 with a girl who fitted Jodi's description, at a place they commonly met up at, especially as we know for a fact from Allen Ovens's testimony that Jodi left her house in Parkhead Place in Easthouses at 1650 to go and meet him and him only ?

[Joe Blogs]

He needed to be seen. After all, he was the one and only person who was meeting with Jodi that night. No one else. Initially, LM said he left his house at 1730 to go and meet with Jodi, who was supposedly coming to Newbattle to meet him (despite Jodi telling her mother, before she left her house at 1650, that they would be "mucking about up here", implying strongly they would be meeting at Easthouses). He deliberately placed himself on the Newbattle Road between 1800-1820 as part of his false alibi (in my opinion). He knew he would be seen on that busy road as it was peak time and the Newbattle Road connects Dalkeith to all surrounding areas (commuters to and from work). He was feigning concern for Jodi, who had died by his hand 45 minutes earlier behind that wall on the RDP behind the V-break (which was nearer the Easthouses end than the Newbattle end).

Well apparently he placed himself on Newbattle road from roughly 5.40 [seen by gate] until at least 6.20 before heading home, Mr Apples!
So you think his plan was to sneak out of RDP around 5.35 and gradually walk home hoping to fool everyone into thinking that he had actually left home 'first' and actually walked to the gate in the 'opposite' direction as it were?
How did he know that no one saw him walking home around 6.30?
Of course the only other alternative is that he went straight home after the murder and then back to the wooden gate before 5.40.Is that even possible?
No, none of the scenarios hold up very well, Mr Apples. Standing on Newbattle road for well over an hour with possibly blood stained clothing seems absurd, the alarm could have been raised at anytime, in fact LM more or less raised the alarm himself by phoning Jodis house at 5.40.
And what about the murder weapon, did he dispose of it on the way home?
Oh and one other thing, why did LM go down as far as the wooden gate and stand there for at least 15 minutes only to deny he had done so to the police, telling them he only went as far as Barondale cottages? Even when he must have known very well that he was seen there by several people? Makes no sense at all, does it?

[Joe Blogs]

Oh, and the V break is nearer to Newbattle rd than it is to Easthouses, Mr Apples!

[Mr Apples]

Well apparently he placed himself on Newbattle road from roughly 5.40 [seen by gate] until at least 6.20 before heading home, Mr Apples!
So you think his plan was to sneak out of RDP around 5.35 and gradually walk home hoping to fool everyone into thinking that he had actually left home 'first' and actually walked to the gate in the 'opposite' direction as it were?
How did he know that no one saw him walking home around 6.30?
Of course the only other alternative is that he went straight home after the murder and then back to the wooden gate before 5.40.Is that even possible?
No, none of the scenarios hold up very well, Mr Apples. Standing on Newbattle road for well over an hour with possibly blood stained clothing seems absurd, the alarm could have been raised at anytime, in fact LM more or less raised the alarm himself by phoning Jodis house at 5.40.
And what about the murder weapon, did he dispose of it on the way home?
Oh and one other thing, why did LM go down as far as the wooden gate and stand there for at least 15 minutes only to deny he had done so to the police, telling them he only went as far as Barondale cottages? Even when he must have known very well that he was seen there by several people? Makes no sense at all, does it?

He had no choice but to be on the NB road. He needed to be seen as part of his false alibi. Everything else -- from AB spotting him at Easthouses at 1655 & those other eyewitnesses spotting him on NB Rd between 1740 - 1820 -- is either here nor there. He progressed down that stretch of woodland after murdering jodi. This woodland was off the beaten path and he knew he wasn't likely to be seen as he walked down it. He had no choice but to get away from the murder scene by whatever means. John [Name removed] & Gordon [Name removed] were in the field to his right hand side, driving that noisy old moped (as per Leonard Kelly's testimony) and he was hardly going to use the Roan's Dyke Path as it was used regularly by joggers,  cyclists & dog walkers; that stretch of woodland offered him cover. What he couldn't bank.on was not being seen by motorists on that very busy Newbattle Road at peak time. However, he had no choice but to be on it. He sure as hell would've been hoping no one would see him on it as he emerged on to it after leaving Jodi's body in that isolated woodland strip. Inevitably, he was seen on it by 2 motorists at just after 1740 at a wooden gate, no doubt cussing under his breath that he'd been seen. If LF & RW hadn't seen LM at that gate at 1740ish, there was every chance he might've literally gotten away with murder.

[Mr Apples]

Well apparently he placed himself on Newbattle road from roughly 5.40 [seen by gate] until at least 6.20 before heading home, Mr Apples!
So you think his plan was to sneak out of RDP around 5.35 and gradually walk home hoping to fool everyone into thinking that he had actually left home 'first' and actually walked to the gate in the 'opposite' direction as it were?
How did he know that no one saw him walking home around 6.30?
Of course the only other alternative is that he went straight home after the murder and then back to the wooden gate before 5.40.Is that even possible?
No, none of the scenarios hold up very well, Mr Apples. Standing on Newbattle road for well over an hour with possibly blood stained clothing seems absurd, the alarm could have been raised at anytime, in fact LM more or less raised the alarm himself by phoning Jodis house at 5.40.
And what about the murder weapon, did he dispose of it on the way home?
Oh and one other thing, why did LM go down as far as the wooden gate and stand there for at least 15 minutes only to deny he had done so to the police, telling them he only went as far as Barondale cottages? Even when he must have known very well that he was seen there by several people? Makes no sense at all, does it?

There is not 1 single witness reported him going home between 1730 - 1915. This was at a busy time when people are only interested in getting home from work/college/uni and into the comfort of their own home and having dinner. A very busy time of the day, when families are preoccupied with preparing dinner and then clearing up. Why would they notice LM??

[Joe Blogs]

There is not 1 single witness reported him going home between 1730 - 1915. This was at a busy time when people are only interested in getting home from work/college/uni and into the comfort of their own home and having dinner. A very busy time of the day, when families are preoccupied with preparing dinner and then clearing up. Why would they notice LM??

Yes, that's the problem, Mr Apples, no one saw LM on the move that evening, so we have no way of knowing which direction he was heading.

[Mr Apples]

Yes, that's the problem, Mr Apples, no one saw LM on the move that evening, so we have no way of knowing which direction he was heading.

No doubt he used the woodlands for cover when going home. No doubt trying his utmost not to be spotted by neighbours in his housing estate. Because it was dinner time he got lucky and no one spotted him going home. I think he was in his house between 1845-1915, getting changed from the parka into the bomber jacket and a quick clean-up in the bathroom upstairs.

What interests me is the different recollections of the eyewitnesses on Newbattle road between 1740 -1815. Lf, RW & CH all said a hip-length, dull khaki green parka jacket; the 3 pushbike boys, 2 of them who knew LM personally couldn't really be sure what he was wearing as they cycled past him at just before 1800, but said a bomber jacket (though did concede they may have been getting mixed up as they'd seen LM wearing the bomber jacket in school often); the other pushbike boy, who didn't know him, said it was not a bomber jacket, but a khaki dull green ''boardy' shirt sold in Flip clothing, that went down to.his thigh; Marion and Derek said they thought he was wearing a bomber jacket (though their eyewitness accounts may have been contaminated as they'd seen Luke & Jodi walking past Derek Hamilton's father's house many times before the murder). It's messy.

[Joe Blogs]

No doubt he used the woodlands for cover when going home. No doubt trying his utmost not to be spotted by neighbours in his housing estate. Because it was dinner time he got lucky and no one spotted him going home. I think he was in his house between 1845-1915, getting changed from the parka into the bomber jacket and a quick clean-up in the bathroom upstairs.

What interests me is the different recollections of the eyewitnesses on Newbattle road between 1740 -1815. Lf, RW & CH all said a hip-length, dull khaki green parka jacket; the 3 pushbike boys, 2 of them who knew LM personally couldn't really be sure what he was wearing as they cycled past him at just before 1800, but said a bomber jacket (though did concede they may have been getting mixed up as they'd seen LM wearing the bomber jacket in school often); the other pushbike boy, who didn't know him, said it was not a bomber jacket, but a khaki dull green ''boardy' shirt sold in Flip clothing, that went down to.his thigh; Marion and Derek said they thought he was wearing a bomber jacket (though their eyewitness accounts may have been contaminated as they'd seen Luke & Jodi walking past Derek Hamilton's father's house many times before the murder). It's messy.

But if LM was the killer he didn't exactly use the woods as cover, he risked crossing the road beside the entrance to RDP. If the likes of the bike boys had passed by at that time it was game-up! makes no sense, Mr Apples!
Why didn't he use the woods and head for the Tool hire station instead before going onto Newbattle RD?
And again, if he did go home around 6.45 no one saw him, and no one saw him leaving again a half hour later.
As for the witness statements, remember Marion/partner swore under oath presumably that it wasn't LM they saw, so you can't say they saw 'Luke' in a bomber jacket!

[Mr Apples]

But if LM was the killer he didn't exactly use the woods as cover, he risked crossing the road beside the entrance to RDP. If the likes of the bike boys had passed by at that time it was game-up! makes no sense, Mr Apples!
Why didn't he use the woods and head for the Tool hire station instead before going onto Newbattle RD?
And again, if he did go home around 6.45 no one saw him, and no one saw him leaving again a half hour later.
As for the witness statements, remember Marion/partner swore under oath presumably that it wasn't LM they saw, so you can't say they saw 'Luke' in a bomber jacket!

He had no choice but to cross the NB Rd. And he needed to be seen on it, for he said he went out to the end of his estate @ 1730/1745 to wait for Jodi coming. After he killed Jodi he proceeded down that woodland strip and that took him on to the NB Rd and  to that wooden gate. He didn't, imo, go out onto that field on his right hand side as that would've exposed him to potential eyewitnesses and JOF &  GD were in that field at that exact time; logic tells us he proceeded down that woodland strip, and that took him to that gate. Even if he did choose to go home via the Tool Hire company, he would've still needed to cross the NB Rd to get home. After the LF & RW sighting, I think he went into the woods behind him and hid for about 10 mins (possibly disposing of the knife) and was then spotted by 6 people at Barondale Cottages between 1800-1815. Marion & Derek did specifically say in court  it wasn't LM and that the person they saw was wearing a bomber jacket. It would be interesting to read their court transcripts for context and clarification. Also, it would be interesting to hear what they told the police in 2003 about their sighting, before they went to court. Maybe they said they weren't sure if it was LM they saw when questioned by police in 2003. LM had changed considerably by the time they went to court (he was fatter and had much longer hair in a ponytail), so maybe his change in appearance made them say it wasn't him they'd seen that day. Even Andrina Bryson, who'd always maintained it was LM she saw in 2003, said in court that "she didn't know" if the person in the dock was LM; he had changed and she was simply being honest.

[Joe Blogs]

He had no choice but to cross the NB Rd. And he needed to be seen on it, for he said he went out to the end of his estate @ 1730/1745 to wait for Jodi coming. After he killed Jodi he proceeded down that woodland strip and that took him on to the NB Rd and  to that wooden gate. He didn't, imo, go out onto that field on his right hand side as that would've exposed him to potential eyewitnesses and JOF &  GD were in that field at that exact time; logic tells us he proceeded down that woodland strip, and that took him to that gate. Even if he did choose to go home via the Tool Hire company, he would've still needed to cross the NB Rd to get home. After the LF & RW sighting, I think he went into the woods behind him and hid for about 10 mins (possibly disposing of the knife) and was then spotted by 6 people at Barondale Cottages between 1800-1815. Marion & Derek did specifically say in court  it wasn't LM and that the person they saw was wearing a bomber jacket. It would be interesting to read their court transcripts for context and clarification. Also, it would be interesting to hear what they told the police in 2003 about their sighting, before they went to court. Maybe they said they weren't sure if it was LM they saw when questioned by police in 2003. LM had changed considerably by the time they went to court (he was fatter and had much longer hair in a ponytail), so maybe his change in appearance made them say it wasn't him they'd seen that day. Even Andrina Bryson, who'd always maintained it was LM she saw in 2003, said in court that "she didn't know" if the person in the dock was LM; he had changed and she was simply being honest.

OK, thanks for you're scenario, Mr Apples! Not much more to say until we get more info from Marion or see her statements or trial transcript!

[Mr Apples]

OK, thanks for you're scenario, Mr Apples! Not much more to say until we get more info from Marion or see her statements or trial transcript!

Yes, their court transcripts could potentially shed some light on things. But, as I said, they spotted him at Barondale Cottages at just before 1800. 2 boys who knew him personally and positively id'd him both at the time and in court, cycled past him at roughly the same time and at the exact same spot as where Marion and Derek spotted him; Occam's razor tells us that it was Luke Mitchell they all saw -- especially as they never saw anyone else on that road. The interesting thing is that these 6 witnesses -- Grant Eliott, Dean Houston, Andrew Holburn, Marion O'Sullivan, Derek Hamilton and Carol Heatlie -- all saw him at Barondale Cottages at roughly the same time, so it was LM they all saw; common sense and Occam's razor tell us that. What is puzzling is that 4 of them said they thought he might've been wearing a bomber jacket (GE, DH, MO & DH) and Andrew Holburn said possibly a german army shirt from Flip Clothing ('boardy shirt', as he said in court) and Carol Heatlie said a dull khaki green parka jacket thar went down to his thighs ('grunge style', as she said in court). It's messy. It just goes to prove how we all perceive things differently. However, I think when you weigh all the evidence together, it was LM on that road.

[Joe Blogs]

Yes, their court transcripts could potentially shed some light on things. But, as I said, they spotted him at Barondale Cottages at just before 1800. 2 boys who knew him personally and positively id'd him both at the time and in court, cycled past him at roughly the same time and at the exact same spot as where Marion and Derek spotted him; Occam's razor tells us that it was Luke Mitchell they all saw -- especially as they never saw anyone else on that road. The interesting thing is that these 6 witnesses -- Grant Eliott, Dean Houston, Andrew Holburn, Marion O'Sullivan, Derek Hamilton and Carol Heatlie -- all saw him at Barondale Cottages at roughly the same time, so it was LM they all saw; common sense and Occam's razor tell us that. What is puzzling is that 4 of them said they thought he might've been wearing a bomber jacket (GE, DH, MO & DH) and Andrew Holburn said possibly a german army shirt from Flip Clothing ('boardy shirt', as he said in court) and Carol Heatlie said a dull khaki green parka jacket thar went down to his thighs ('grunge style', as she said in court). It's messy. It just goes to prove how we all perceive things differently. However, I think when you weigh all the evidence together, it was LM on that road.

It all hinges on where Marion/Derek saw 'the guy',Mr Apples! at the wooden gate or at Barondale cottages?

[Mr Apples]

It all hinges on where Marion/Derek saw 'the guy',Mr Apples! at the wooden gate or at Barondale cottages?

Well, as clarified repeatedly, it was at a pathway entrance they spotted him at just before 1800. The same as the 3 boys on pushbikes said it was him standing at "a pathway entrance" just before 1800. Common sense and Occam's razor tell us it was LM they all saw -- especially as they never saw anyone elsecon that road. You are disputing that MO & DH never saw him at Barondale Cottages? That they might've seen him at the entrance to Roan's Dyke Path? A path that doesn't even have a pathway or driveway before it -- just a mere standard kerbway? 2 boys who knew him and positively id'd him at that pathway to Barondale Cottages saw him at the exact same time as MO & DH. Occam's razor: it was LM at the entrance to Barondale Cottages. It couldn't be clearer. They definitely never saw him at the opening of Roan's Dyke Path on Newbattle Road. You are clutching at straws with this assertion.

[Joe Blogs]

Well, as clarified repeatedly, it was at a pathway entrance they spotted him at just before 1800. The same as the 3 boys on pushbikes said it was him standing at "a pathway entrance" just before 1800. Common sense and Occam's razor tell us it was LM they all saw -- especially as they never saw anyone elsecon that road. You are disputing that MO & DH never saw him at Barondale Cottages? That they might've seen him at the entrance to Roan's Dyke Path? A path that doesn't even have a pathway or driveway before it -- just a mere standard kerbway? 2 boys who knew him and positively id'd him at that pathway to Barondale Cottages saw him at the exact same time as MO & DH. Occam's razor: it was LM at the entrance to Barondale Cottages. It couldn't be clearer. They definitely never saw him at the opening of Roan's Dyke Path on Newbattle Road. You are clutching at straws with this assertion.

OK, thanks, Mr Apples, but I would still like to see it in black and white as it were!
If it was Barondale cottages that Marion saw the 'guy', obviously I will accept that that 'guy' was Luke Mitchell!