The known facts and the speculations featuring Brueckner, the prime suspect

[sadie]

The "positions" being adopted might be an internet game, obsession or crusade for some but it should be realised this concerns the true lives of Madeleine and her parents.

The positions are vitally important Brie.  Vitally to a sleuth/investigator

Had Gerry and Jez been standing further up the hill, a watcher on the balcony opposite would have been able to see them - and events would have happened differently.   


No go ahead for the abduction, because the getaway car, parked conveniently for the watcher on that little car park opposite Tapas reception, would have had to drive past G and Jez. to pick up Tannerman and Madeleine



~~~~~

Because a corner of block 4 was sticking out about 6 feet beyond the balcony, his view was blocked in a southerly direction.    He could not see the two men, G and J, when they stood in the road at the entrance to the alleyway. 

He thought that it was all clear,   so he gave the go ahead for the abduction.

Can you see the reason why (some) posters on here are so keen to lie and try and change facts.


The above is all in my carefully considered opinion.


An opinion which no-one on here (excepting Anthro and maybe a couple of others) care to consider. 
 
Anthro is a very clever slueth and considers all angles and all the details.  Furthermore she is flexible and happy to change direction considering new things, rather than get stuck in a rut, as some have here

Thank goodness SY took notice of my findings.

[sadie]

You totally misunderstand the situation... That isnt opinion.. Its fact. Neither SY nor the mccanns think Maddie is still alive

That is not correct, it seems Davel.  You must have missed this post

Make of this what you will.

EXCLUSIVE: Scotland Yard 'detectives believe Madeleine McCann could still be ALIVE': Bespoke Met Police unit is treating tragedy as a missing person case - despite German authorities insisting snatched girl is dead

Scotland Yard's Madeleine McCann team has 'more open thinking' and is still treating her disappearance as a missing person's investigation – despite German prosecutors insisting she is dead.

Among other theories, the bespoke London unit of officers codenamed Operation Grange is still working on a possibility she may be alive.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10239367/Scotland-Yard-open-thinking-Madeleine-McCann-Germans-think-dead.html

Also haven't you wondered why SY have not joined the PJ and the BKA in their final (hopefully) gathering and assessment of evidence?

I have

- and I think it strongly suggests that SY believe Madeleine may still be alive.

[Mr Gray]

That is not correct, it seems Davel.  You must have missed this post

Also haven't you wondered why SY have not joined the PJ and the BKA in their final (hopefully) gathering and assessment of evidence?

I have

- and I think it strongly suggests that SY believe Madeleine may still be alive.

No haven't missed anything. Neither SY or the McCanns believe Maddie IS alive.... But as they haven't seen the evidence that the Germans have they hang on to the remote possibility she may be. I make this point because some try to maintain that SY and the Germans are not acting together

I'm sure that the Germans have proof Maddie was abducted and murdered.. Probably photographic

[faithlilly]

No, that's not what I'm saying. But the fact you are trying to put words in my mouth and deliberately misrepresent what I was saying is comforting. It means you have absolutely nothing of worth to challenge what I actually said.

I'm saying Gerry says that's where he was stood, because that's how he genuinely remembered it. If it was all a lie, it would be easy for him to change his story to align it with the others and say he was mistaken (although if he did that, I'm sure you'd cite that as being equally suspicious). He's saying he was stood further over because he's just being honest about what he remembers. For what it's worth, I think he is probably incorrect in his recollection. The same as I think Martin Smith is incorrect in his. Is Martin Smith an arrogant narcissist for not aligning his view to that of Peter and Aoife, who disagreed that the man was Gerry?

Taking each of the various accounts, I suggest they were probably stood just off the kerb near the corner of where the pathway starts. Memories are fallible, alcohol had been consumed, there was no special reason to etch into their minds where exactly they stood. But piecing together all three accounts, that seems the most likely place, but it's still not certain either.

This is just a typical example of variations in recollections that people try to twist and contort into having a bigger meaning. I'm yet to hear a credible reason for why Jane would lie about passing them though.

Who had consumed alcohol?

[Ms Para glider]

Who had consumed alcohol?

Well Gerry certainly had, he states he and Kate were drinking in the apartment in the hour between them putting the kids to bed and leaving for the Tapas.

Jane admits drinking that night at the Tapas as well. Whether she'd drank anything by the time she went to do this check isn't explicitly stated in the files I don't think, but it's probable since she'd been sat at the Tapas for about 40 minutes or more by that point. May be some assumption on my part but if I was sat in a bar for 40 minutes I would have definitely have had a drink by then. Wouldn't you?

No idea if Jez had consumed alcohol that day, don't believe he has ever stated either way if he had or hadn't. Probably because he was never asked.

As for the baby in the pram, I'm going to stick my neck out and say he was probably sober.

[faithlilly]

Well Gerry certainly had, he states he and Kate were drinking in the apartment in the hour between them putting the kids to bed and leaving for the Tapas.

Jane admits drinking that night at the Tapas as well. Whether she'd drank anything by the time she went to do this check isn't explicitly stated in the files I don't think, but it's probable since she'd been sat at the Tapas for about 40 minutes or more by that point. May be some assumption on my part but if I was sat in a bar for 40 minutes I would have definitely have had a drink by then. Wouldn't you?

No idea if Jez had consumed alcohol that day, don't believe he has ever stated either way if he had or hadn't. Probably because he was never asked.

As for the baby in the pram, I'm going to stick my neck out and say he was probably sober.

Do you think that Gerry had had enough alcohol to affect his ability to recall events accurately or indeed Tanner because that would, obviously, have an impact on the veracity of their later statements? Are we to believe that their statements were a true reflect of what they believed happened that night or a series of cobbled together memories coloured by alcohol?

[Vertigo Swirl]

Do you think that Gerry had had enough alcohol to affect his ability to recall events accurately or indeed Tanner because that would, obviously, have an impact on the veracity of their later statements? Are we to believe that their statements were a true reflect of what they believed happened that night or a series of cobbled together memories coloured by alcohol?

As no one was breathylsed I would say it’s an impossible question to answer.  Don’t forget the sceptic narrative however - they were on the piss every night and had ordered 12 bottles of wine each, or something.

[Ms Para glider]

Do you think that Gerry had had enough alcohol to affect his ability to recall events accurately or indeed Tanner because that would, obviously, have an impact on the veracity of their later statements? Are we to believe that their statements were a true reflect of what they believed happened that night or a series of cobbled together memories coloured by alcohol?

  Trying to put words in my mouth again I see. I knew that was a loaded question, with follow-up responses ready to fire at me no matter what I'd answered, but I just couldn't resist.

All I said was 'Alcohol had been cosumed'. Was that untrue? With or without alcohol, memories are fallible. Several people can watch the exact same event and then if asked to recount it, they will all give slightly different versions of how they remembered it. Especially if a question relates to something as specific as who was stood exactly where at a specific point in time during an event where you had no particular reason to pay attention to those kind of details.

All I was saying, is that cosuming alcohol (even a little) would have potentialy further inhibited recalling specific details such as that. What I was not saying was "Gerry and Jane were smashed off their faces and so we can't trust a word they say".

You seem to want the argument to be black or white. Either they were drunk and so we can't trust their accounts. Or, they weren't drunk and so any minor discrepancy in their accounts must be a lie.

You don't appear to be able to think objectively. You are quite happy to accept that after seeing Gerry on the news constantly for four months, Martin Smith can suddenly remember "that's the shifty looking man I saw carrying that girl in an odd way", but not that Gerry can't recall the exact spot of road he had a meaninless chit chat with his buddy.

Hypothetical question, if it turned out newly unearthed CCTV fototage proved that Jane did indeed walk past Jez and Gerry, and it then turned out that Jane Tanner goes and positively identifies CB as the man she saw and she says she is 90 percent sure (not just 60 to 80%), would you be so willing to accept her assertion as you do Martin Smith's?

[sadie]

Well Gerry certainly had, he states he and Kate were drinking in the apartment in the hour between them putting the kids to bed and leaving for the Tapas.

Jane admits drinking that night at the Tapas as well. Whether she'd drank anything by the time she went to do this check isn't explicitly stated in the files I don't think, but it's probable since she'd been sat at the Tapas for about 40 minutes or more by that point. May be some assumption on my part but if I was sat in a bar for 40 minutes I would have definitely have had a drink by then. Wouldn't you?

No idea if Jez had consumed alcohol that day, don't believe he has ever stated either way if he had or hadn't. Probably because he was never asked.

As for the baby in the pram, I'm going to stick my neck out and say he was probably sober.

Sorry Para, but The Tapas group were sitting in a restaurant, not a bar.  I have been there and eaten there.  The bar is in a seperate building next door.  No way had they drunk enough to make them tiddly by the time of Janes sighting


1)  In KATES statement she said that they had a glass of NZ wine before dinner



2)  LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD

WITNESS TESTIMONY OF JERONIMO RODRIGUES SALCEDAS

Occupation: Fitness Instructor (But working as a waiter and wine waiter at Ocean club)



[snip]
In relation to alcohol consumption, it never appeared to me to be excessive. The wine was included in the dinner at Tapas and the functionaries were very generous in this respect. The permission was approximately one bottler per person [/snip]


~~~~~~~~~~



3)  Witness Statement

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira

Date: 2007.09.07

[snip]
On the day of the disappearance, all were seated at the table between 20H35 and 20H45. He remembers them arriving as usual. Had they arrived late, this would have been noted by the staff. He does not remember if they were served cocktails. When they were all together, the group sat at the table, he took their orders, including the starters. As already mentioned, on this occasion, he would immediately take two white and two red bottles of wine and one bottle of water to the table. Their main courses would normally be ready 25 to 30 minutes after their order? a time they used to consume the starters. After starters, the group would normally spend about 15 minutes finishing the main course. Generally, during dinner, he would serve four bottles of wine (two white and two red), which the group completely consumed. On that day, he did not serve any more wine.[/snip]


On that day he did not serve any more wine,   This means that there was still some left, so eating a meal as they were, they were pretty sober 

Having been served free wines in hotels before, I can tell you it is usually pretty revolting.   However with one of the owners of OC being David Symington of the famous Symington Port Family of Oporto, perhaps it was decent?   
One bottle serves 5 standard glasses



Para, you are new and may not know this:
I no longer do cites, cos I am old and have been very seriously ill.  I am not up to the extra work of finding cites anymore, sorry.

But on this occasion I have made the effort.

[John]

No haven't missed anything. Neither SY or the McCanns believe Maddie IS alive.... But as they haven't seen the evidence that the Germans have they hang on to the remote possibility she may be. I make this point because some try to maintain that SY and the Germans are not acting together

I'm sure that the Germans have proof Maddie was abducted and murdered.. Probably photographic

I'm afraid I have to agree with Sadie on this one. SY have said there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and that is true in fact. The McCanns also hold that hope as they have every right to do.

Wolters has shared nothing even with the missing child's parents and that in itself is a disgrace. I never heard of such callousness ever!

[sadie]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Sadie on this one. SY have said there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and that is true in fact. The McCanns also hold that hope as they have every right to do.

Wolters has shared nothing even with the missing child's parents and that in itself is a disgrace. I never heard of such callousness ever!

Thank you John.

As I have said before, there is evidence (3 pieces) with OG that Madeleine was still alive in February 2012.   I can't share it.

Believe me or believe me not, that's up to you.

[G-Unit]

As no one was breathylsed I would say it’s an impossible question to answer.  Don’t forget the sceptic narrative however - they were on the piss every night and had ordered 12 bottles of wine each, or something.

Perhaps some people were daft enough to believe what they read in the newspapers;

Leaks from inside the police investigation suggested the so-called Tapas Nine ordered daiquiris, martinis and beers before dinner, downed up to 14 bottles of wine with their meal, and usually enjoyed almond liqueur afterwards.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491693/Portuguese-police-Were-Kate-Gerry-drunk-night-Madeleine-vanished.html

[The General]

Perhaps some people were daft enough to believe what they read in the newspapers;

Leaks from inside the police investigation suggested the so-called Tapas Nine ordered daiquiris, martinis and beers before dinner, downed up to 14 bottles of wine with their meal, and usually enjoyed almond liqueur afterwards.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491693/Portuguese-police-Were-Kate-Gerry-drunk-night-Madeleine-vanished.html

So the ever-twisting defence narrative now is that no wonder their memories were unreliable, they were all shit faced, so the 2nd set of statements are way more reliable?
Explains Gerry's confusion about which door he used when seeing his daughter for the last time. He probably fell over the picket fence, staggered up the steps, lurching in to the hedge as he ascended, gathered himself at the top and swayed precariously towards the patio door, 'shushhing' nobody in particular, before wrenching the door open, tripping over the threshold and clattering in to the coffee table (hence the blood).
He paused at the door and gazed with sozzled wonder at just Madeleine, uttered a teary 'sheez sooo bootiful, so she is....' and somehow managed to extricate himself back to the party without incurring further bodily damage.

And it's no wonder he didn't see Jane, he probably couldn't see his own hands.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Perhaps some people were daft enough to believe what they read in the newspapers;

Leaks from inside the police investigation suggested the so-called Tapas Nine ordered daiquiris, martinis and beers before dinner, downed up to 14 bottles of wine with their meal, and usually enjoyed almond liqueur afterwards.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491693/Portuguese-police-Were-Kate-Gerry-drunk-night-Madeleine-vanished.html

And there is certainly no shortage of daft people willing to believe the Tapas group were off on the piss and roaring drunk every night.

[Ms Para glider]

Sorry Para, but The Tapas group were sitting in a restaurant, not a bar.  I have been there and eaten there.  The bar is in a seperate building next door.  No way had they drunk enough to make them tiddly by the time of Janes sighting


1)  In KATES statement she said that they had a glass of NZ wine before dinner



2)  LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD

WITNESS TESTIMONY OF JERONIMO RODRIGUES SALCEDAS

Occupation: Fitness Instructor (But working as a waiter and wine waiter at Ocean club)



[snip]
In relation to alcohol consumption, it never appeared to me to be excessive. The wine was included in the dinner at Tapas and the functionaries were very generous in this respect. The permission was approximately one bottler per person [/snip]


~~~~~~~~~~



3)  Witness Statement

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira

Date: 2007.09.07

[snip]
On the day of the disappearance, all were seated at the table between 20H35 and 20H45. He remembers them arriving as usual. Had they arrived late, this would have been noted by the staff. He does not remember if they were served cocktails. When they were all together, the group sat at the table, he took their orders, including the starters. As already mentioned, on this occasion, he would immediately take two white and two red bottles of wine and one bottle of water to the table. Their main courses would normally be ready 25 to 30 minutes after their order? a time they used to consume the starters. After starters, the group would normally spend about 15 minutes finishing the main course. Generally, during dinner, he would serve four bottles of wine (two white and two red), which the group completely consumed. On that day, he did not serve any more wine.[/snip]


On that day he did not serve any more wine,   This means that there was still some left, so eating a meal as they were, they were pretty sober 

Having been served free wines in hotels before, I can tell you it is usually pretty revolting.   However with one of the owners of OC being David Symington of the famous Symington Port Family of Oporto, perhaps it was decent?   
One bottle serves 5 standard glasses



Para, you are new and may not know this:
I no longer do cites, cos I am old and have been very seriously ill.  I am not up to the extra work of finding cites anymore, sorry.

But on this occasion I have made the effort.

Thank you Sadie. Yes, I understand they were sat in the restaurant area, so maybe should not have used the terminology "Bar" but people do tend to refer to it all interchangeably as the "Tapas Bar". I'm aware it comprises two separate areas though. All I meant is that since Jane admits to drinking wine in the restaurant that night, it's quite probable that she had drunk "some" prior to doing her first check given the times.

And just to clarify, at no point have I tried to make out they were drunk (or even tiddly for that matter). My original comment was simply that "Alcohol had been consumed". That is all. Even a small amount of alcohol can cause some impairment, hence the reason we have drink-drive limits for example. I agree that it does not appear they were drinking excessively. Although some people seem desperate to twist my words to make out that is what I meant.