Gerry and Jez chat while Jane walks by. Seconds later she spots Tannerman!

[pegasus]

The chat is described clearly in two JW statements as being near the gate and stairs.
Now the sketch map - look carefully, IMO the gate is drawn as a thick line section of the line of the garden wall. Does anyone see this? The position of the gate on map is inaccurate, that is understandable drawn from memory days later in UK. The chat is IMO recalled as level with gate, and IMO is drawn level with the gate on sketchmap.

[pathfinder73]

The distance from the centreline of the reception building north to the road junction is 45m approx.
Give or take the alley way is 10/12m from reception building.

Thank you so the McCanns thought Jane saw the man as soon as she left the secondary reception i.e. about 50 metres away. 

[Alice Purjorick]

Thank you so the McCanns thought Jane saw the man as soon as she left the secondary reception i.e. about 50 metres away.

I would always have reservations about anyone's guesstimate of distance, time and mass.
Starting with a blank sheet: even someone with 6/6 vision would struggle to make out detail at dusk at 50m.
I would suggest Jane needed to be north of Jez & Gerry to have observed the detail she apparently did.
I couldn't make much sense of the distances quoted by various protagonists, but if you plot it out with respect to where people said they were relative to features it is quite revealing. (how sad is that but it was a miserable winter).

[mercury]

As in Gerry's first statement;

In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

But immediately after he says;

At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

This first statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would Gerry use the front door if the patio door was unlocked?  The only way it makes sense is if the apartment was fully locked up at 9.05pm when Gerry went in, but the patio door was unlocked when Matt went in. In other words, Gerry entered through the locked front door, then exited by unlocking the patio door. Perhaps he just stepped out for some reason and was going to go back in and lock up again? Instead he heard or saw Jeremy Wilkins approaching and stepped out to speak to him, then forgot about the patio door and returned to the restaurant.

A little later in the statement he's forgotten about the unlocked patio door again, then he remembers;

At about 22.00 it was his wife Kate who went to check on the children. She entered the apartment by the door using the key and saw immediately that the door to the children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the blinds were raised and the curtains were drawn open.
The side door leading to the living room was closed, which as previously stated, was never left locked.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

Looking at the 'Activity book' timeline, Gerry's meeting with Jeremy Wilkins isn't on there. He is supposed to have checked 9.10-9.15pm. Jan Tanner saw the 'abductor' at 9.20pm.  Had the timeline been correct, Jane wouldn't have passed the two men chatting. Did Jane leave the restaurant earlier than the timeline says or was Gerry delayed by meeting Jeremy? Whichever; neither man saw her, which casts doubt upon her statement.

Excellent points here. they will be all be put down to distress or the translator making things up and such like.

[G-Unit]

Excellent points here. they will be all be put down to distress or the translator making things up and such like.

I'm quite sure that you wouldn't forget which door you used to enter the apartment. If you did forget, you would be reminded the moment you mentioned that Matthew used the patio door, and would have mentioned it at the time, not a week later.

I'm also very reluctant to believe that just one couple out of four decided to leave their apartment unlocked. Kate mentioned to Fiona that it was so Madeleine could get out. No-one would want a three/four year old emerging onto that balcony in the dark; too dangerous. Once Madeleine was gone, Kate didn't for a moment entertain the idea that she had got out, so why suggest it to Fiona earlier?

If Kate had found a locked apartment with open (forced) shutters and an open window at 10pm with Madeleine gone, it would have made sense to say she knew immediately that Madeleine had been taken. The unlocked patio door made nonsense of what she said.

[pathfinder73]

I would always have reservations about anyone's guesstimate of distance, time and mass.
Starting with a blank sheet: even someone with 6/6 vision would struggle to make out detail at dusk at 50m.
I would suggest Jane needed to be north of Jez & Gerry to have observed the detail she apparently did.
I couldn't make much sense of the distances quoted by various protagonists, but if you plot it out with respect to where people said they were relative to features it is quite revealing. (how sad is that but it was a miserable winter).

Good points. Jane thought it was crecheman 

Because at that point I thought it’s a person taking their child either back from the crèche or, you know, just some father carrying their own child, so it didn’t really, you know, and that didn’t.  I’m making it sound like it really registered at the time, but it didn’t, that is literally, I thought ‘Oh’”. (JT)

[pegasus]

Mr A claims the chat was near the gate and the sound of the chat was audible in the living area.
This is very important whatever theory you may have.
For example if an abductor entered the apartment, when he walked between the front door and bedroom, he would hear the sound of voices coming in through the pane of that living area window, right?
So does anyone agree that the chat location was near that window and the sound of the chat was audible in the living area?

[sadie]

Mr A claims the chat was near the gate and the sound of the chat was audible in the living area.
This is very important whatever theory you may have.
For example if an abductor entered the apartment, when he walked between the front door and bedroom, he would hear the sound of voices coming in through the pane of that living area window, right?
So does anyone agree that the chat location was near that window and the sound of the chat was audible in the living area?

Pegasus.

Amaral has a theory and you have fallen for it, when the evidence goes against it. 
Amaral has revealed the shallowness of his theories over and over; he either doesn't think them thru or he makes them up to fit his agenda


You and others are just making a story up to fit your ideas... doing the same as Amaral


The chat was NOT near the window but some 7.4 metres[24+ft] away right by the alleyway corner
Three diferent sets of evidence agree and confirm that.  You are selecting isolated instances that state other places and you are NOT being logical in doing so.

*  See
sadie post 
Reply #1286 on: May 13, 2015, 12:50:16 AM
And Anna posts 
Reply # 1285 on: May 12, 2015, 11:34:48 PM
and Reply #1281 on: May 12, 2015, 10:44:52 PM


Furthermore Gerry as a parent, would know the need to keep his voice down, so as to not disturb Jezes little one.  Unless the window was open, no-one would possibly hear the hushed voices outside. 



If the window was open then all your and pathfinders theories about draughts closing and opening doors are rubbished immediately.



Pegasus you are pushing a dead dodo with your assumptions.  Amaral might be your friend BUT please let's be realistic.

[pathfinder73]

Pegasus.

Amaral has a theory and you have fallen for it, when the evidence goes against it. 
Amaral has revealed the shallowness of his theories over and over; he either doesn't think them thru or he makes them up to fit his agenda


You and others are just making a story up to fit your ideas... doing the same as Amaral


The chat was NOT near the window but some 7.4 metres[24+ft] away right by the alleyway corner
Three diferent sets of evidence agree and confirm that.  You are selecting isolated instances that state other places and you are NOT being logical in doing so.

*  See
sadie post 
Reply #1286 on: May 13, 2015, 12:50:16 AM
And Anna posts 
Reply # 1285 on: May 12, 2015, 11:34:48 PM
and Reply #1281 on: May 12, 2015, 10:44:52 PM


Furthermore Gerry as a parent, would know the need to keep his voice down, so as to not disturb Jezes little one.  Unless the window was open, no-one would possibly hear the hushed voices outside. 



If the window was open then all your and pathfinders theories about draughts closing and opening doors are rubbished immediately.



Pegasus you are pushing a dead dodo with your assumptions.  Amaral might be your friend BUT please let's be realistic.

There was no window open. No draughts inside that apartment to move doors. The door allegedly moved twice before Matt arrived and it wasn't a draught that moved it. You would have to question who said it moved because it was found in the same position 30 minutes later. That's another revelation moment.

[mercury]

Pegasus.

Amaral has a theory and you have fallen for it, when the evidence goes against it. 
Amaral has revealed the shallowness of his theories over and over; he either doesn't think them thru or he makes them up to fit his agenda


You and others are just making a story up to fit your ideas... doing the same as Amaral


The chat was NOT near the window but some 7.4 metres[24+ft] away right by the alleyway corner
Three diferent sets of evidence agree and confirm that.  You are selecting isolated instances that state other places and you are NOT being logical in doing so.

*  See
sadie post 
Reply #1286 on: May 13, 2015, 12:50:16 AM
And Anna posts 
Reply # 1285 on: May 12, 2015, 11:34:48 PM
and Reply #1281 on: May 12, 2015, 10:44:52 PM


Furthermore Gerry as a parent, would know the need to keep his voice down, so as to not disturb Jezes little one.  Unless the window was open, no-one would possibly hear the hushed voices outside. 



If the window was open then all your and pathfinders theories about draughts closing and opening doors are rubbished immediately.



Pegasus you are pushing a dead dodo with your assumptions.  Amaral might be your friend BUT please let's be realistic.

Jez Wilkins said the conversation happened at the gate, are you calling him a liar?

[pegasus]

Pegasus.

Amaral has a theory and you have fallen for it, when the evidence goes against it. 
Amaral has revealed the shallowness of his theories over and over; he either doesn't think them thru or he makes them up to fit his agenda


You and others are just making a story up to fit your ideas... doing the same as Amaral


The chat was NOT near the window but some 7.4 metres[24+ft] away right by the alleyway corner
Three diferent sets of evidence agree and confirm that.  You are selecting isolated instances that state other places and you are NOT being logical in doing so.

*  See
sadie post 
Reply #1286 on: May 13, 2015, 12:50:16 AM
And Anna posts 
Reply # 1285 on: May 12, 2015, 11:34:48 PM
and Reply #1281 on: May 12, 2015, 10:44:52 PM


Furthermore Gerry as a parent, would know the need to keep his voice down, so as to not disturb Jezes little one.  Unless the window was open, no-one would possibly hear the hushed voices outside. 



If the window was open then all your and pathfinders theories about draughts closing and opening doors are rubbished immediately.



Pegasus you are pushing a dead dodo with your assumptions.  Amaral might be your friend BUT please let's be realistic.

Far from blindly accepting his theories ...... this is what I believe ......
The open window was not staged IMO.
The assumption that clothing can only acquire scent while being worn is ridiculous IMO.
IMO he makes error at a two stages in timeline.
IMO the cat was never alerted to, it stayed on the bed, exactly as the witness said.
And the list goes on.
Here is fierce critic of many of his ideas, but I do think the chat was probably audible in the living area (even at your distance of over 7 metres) if the lounge side window is single-glazed

[ShiningInLuz]

I cannot speak with authority on G5A, but here is my experience in Portugal.

I have lived on holiday/"permanently" in perhaps 12 to 15 properties in the last 10 to 12 years.

One in Olhão was a "renovated" property.  I loved the location but "renovated" was stretching it a bit.  It had the original wooden doors, rotting in places.  And the original wooden windows, complete with wooden shutters.

I would say that place was single glazed, but it was probably built a hundred years ago.

Places I have lived in before and after this include antique villas etc.  All of these were double-glazed.  The place I am living in now is about the same vintage as the Ocean Club, and it is double-glazed, with original windows in situ.

If you want to make a case for 5A being single-glazed the please go for it.  It would be an exception to the general trend, but exceptions do happen.

[pegasus]

I cannot speak with authority on G5A, but here is my experience in Portugal.

I have lived on holiday/"permanently" in perhaps 12 to 15 properties in the last 10 to 12 years.

One in Olhão was a "renovated" property.  I loved the location but "renovated" was stretching it a bit.  It had the original wooden doors, rotting in places.  And the original wooden windows, complete with wooden shutters.

I would say that place was single glazed, but it was probably built a hundred years ago.

Places I have lived in before and after this include antique villas etc.  All of these were double-glazed.  The place I am living in now is about the same vintage as the Ocean Club, and it is double-glazed, with original windows in situ.

If you want to make a case for 5A being single-glazed the please go for it.  It would be an exception to the general trend, but exceptions do happen.

In the rogs is an account of someone checking a different apartment in the same block.
Before opening the door the checker, from outside, through the glass of a completely shut window,  hears a child making low volume noise inside. This proves that even low volume human voice passes through the type of window installed block 5.

[misty]

In the rogs is an account of someone checking a different apartment in the same block.
Before opening the door the checker, from outside, through the glass of a completely shut window,  hears a child making low volume noise inside. This proves that even low volume human voice passes through the type of window installed block 5.

Wouldn't the closed shutter muffle the sound of any voices even more?

[Miss Taken Identity]

I would always have reservations about anyone's guesstimate of distance, time and mass.
Starting with a blank sheet: even someone with 6/6 vision would struggle to make out detail at dusk at 50m.
I would suggest Jane needed to be north of Jez & Gerry to have observed the detail she apparently did.
I couldn't make much sense of the distances quoted by various protagonists, but if you plot it out with respect to where people said they were relative to features it is quite revealing. (how sad is that but it was a miserable winter).

Janes memory inproved with further discussions with Kate N Gerry..with time, because as Kate mentioned on Oprah show ( nothing to do with Maddies dissapearance in America?) Jane described the PYJAMAS Maddie wore similar to * she held some up to audience* as she was being carried away by the 'abductor'  which we now know was a just a guy carrying a child with similar jammies to Maddie...erm.. um..  hmm..