Process for shelving the investigation or having it reinstated.

[AnneGuedes]

a new fact could lead the MP to reopen the case.
Both the McCanns and Robert M could request the re-opening of the investigation.

It's important to link those, two, inseparable, points: the one cannot (could not!) exist without the other ...

Robert M could consider his good name hadn't been sufficiently well cleaned, requiring a further inquiry on the three persons who said he was sneaking around on the 3rd of May. This wouldn't have affected the McCanns who never pretended that.

[Carana]

I seem to remember that they actually had longer than that due to the summer recess (although I'm not certain of that).

In any event, there was an enormous amount of material to wade through with no specific smoking gun.

Hence the push for the review to collate all the information held by the various forces to see if any emerge.

Yes, they had more time because of the 4 or 5 weeks justice holidays.
I feel it would have been difficult for them to request the reopening of the inquiry (the third possibility) since precisely the rejected reconstruction had been presented by the MP as necessary to go on with the inquiry (excuse or not..), unless they had offered to reconstruct.

I'm not sure I follow, Anne.

How would a reconstruction have helped keep an active investigation into the search for Madeleine open?

Carana, it's just my feeling.
The MP made clear that, without a reconstruction, the investigation was condemned more sooner than later. Though a little girl was being searched for, the reconstruction was finally rejected by the group. Logically, as announced by the MP, the case was shelved after a few months.
Nevertheless the MP assured that it wasn't for ever : a new fact could lead the MP to reopen the case.
Both the McCanns and Robert M could request the re-opening of the investigation. If the McCanns had done it, the MP certainly would have reminded them a re-opening was useless without the reconstruction the proper MP had considered necessary to proceed.
If I were a PR I would have let them know this before they took the right decision... but I'm not !

Sorry, I still don't follow.

- The inquiry phase was archived in the knowledge that this reconstruction had not taken place.

If any one of them were guilty, they would clearly have no interest in going back to do one.

But, let's assume that they are innocent.

- They had lost trust in the PJ and were wary (so would I be in the same circumstances).

What could be the outcomes of such a reconstruction?

- They would have to have precisely the same conditions (lighting, trees, Tapas staff, guests, etc.) They may have been able to reconstruct huge canvas structures to simulate foliage, change the lighting back to what it was at the time, simulate the wind conditions...

- If all of this is not done, someone could simply declare that a detail proves that the narrative is impossible, based on heaven knows what. (I doubt that this would have been the case under Rebelo, but anyway). The defence would be that the exact conditions had not been reproduced.

Or...

- That it is possible that their version of events was true at the time, but inconclusive.

So long afterwards, they would be relying on their memories.


And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

I don't see how, in the best of cases, it could have proven their innocence (only that it was possible).

How would that have reactivated the search for the missing child?

[AnneGuedes]

Sorry, I still don't follow.

- The inquiry phase was archived in the knowledge that this reconstruction had not taken place.
If any one of them were guilty, they would clearly have no interest in going back to do one.
The reconstruction hadn't the objective to find whether somebody was guilty, but to give a new start to an investigation which was stagnant (what did Rebelo achieved ?). The issue was the search for Madeleine. We have no reason to doubt the MP.

But, let's assume that they are innocent.

- They had lost trust in the PJ and were wary (so would I be in the same circumstances).

What could be the outcomes of such a reconstruction?
This normally doesn't belong to victims to decide, it's the job of the police and the justice. The MP made it clear nobody was risking its skin ! In fact the TP said they feared that it would be emotionally unbearable...
The reconstruction implied costs and was a last hope to find out what had happened to Madeleine. I bet you'd like to know as well ! ;)

- They would have to have precisely the same conditions (lighting, trees, Tapas staff, guests, etc.) They may have been able to reconstruct huge canvas structures to simulate foliage, change the lighting back to what it was at the time, simulate the wind conditions...

- If all of this is not done, someone could simply declare that a detail proves that the narrative is impossible, based on heaven knows what. (I doubt that this would have been the case under Rebelo, but anyway). The defence would be that the exact conditions had not been reproduced.
Yes, this certainly was a problem. But some discrepancies could have been cleared. And the climate in October/November isn't very different. Vegetation is still luxuriant. The adjustments should be done on day light.

Or...

- That it is possible that their version of events was true at the time, but inconclusive.

So long afterwards, they would be relying on their memories.

They would also be relying on their statements, the first ones especially. I agree the reconstruction could be inconclusive. But they would have gained the esteem of the public opinion for sure.

And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

I don't see how, in the best of cases, it could have proven their innocence (only that it was possible).
How would that have reactivated the search for the missing child?
The PJ obviously had some suspicions. The MP too. They would have tried to make them clear. Then they eventually would have looked at the investigation with a new eye.

[AnneGuedes]

I hope you can read, Carana. My answers are in italic in the middle of your post !

[Carana]

@Anne

In terms of "reopening" the inquiry phase, I still don't see how a reconstruction with just the McCanns (or even with just the T9) would have relaunched it.

I'm aware that Rebelo tried to get it to happen, but a reconstruction in the early days, with guests, Tapas staff, etc., would have been more effective.

As a general reconstruction, anyone who was still present would have been willing to participate. Of course it would have been difficult to keep the media away. On the other hand, the PJ could have explained what the purpose was.

[Carana]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

[AnneGuedes]

@Anne

In terms of "reopening" the inquiry phase, I still don't see how a reconstruction with just the McCanns (or even with just the T9) would have relaunched it.

I'm aware that Rebelo tried to get it to happen, but a reconstruction in the early days, with guests, Tapas staff, etc., would have been more effective.

As a general reconstruction, anyone who was still present would have been willing to participate. Of course it would have been difficult to keep the media away. On the other hand, the PJ could have explained what the purpose was.

The MP insisted that all had to participate.
I don't know if offering to reconstruct would have helped to re-open the investigation. It just seems logical to me since the main reason for closing the investigation was the lack of reconstruction.
Read the exchange of e-mails in the files in April 2008, it's exemplary.

[Carana]

@Anne

In terms of "reopening" the inquiry phase, I still don't see how a reconstruction with just the McCanns (or even with just the T9) would have relaunched it.

I'm aware that Rebelo tried to get it to happen, but a reconstruction in the early days, with guests, Tapas staff, etc., would have been more effective.

As a general reconstruction, anyone who was still present would have been willing to participate. Of course it would have been difficult to keep the media away. On the other hand, the PJ could have explained what the purpose was.

The MP insisted that all had to participate.
I don't know if offering to reconstruct would have helped to re-open the investigation. It just seems logical to me since the main reason for closing the investigation was the lack of reconstruction.
Read the exchange of e-mails in the files in April 2008, it's exemplary.

We seem to have two threads on this subject. LOL

[AnneGuedes]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

bug, sorry !

[Carana]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

You see, here in Portugal like in France, they don't do reconstruction with actors and in front of cameras (except for police cameras). The more you imagine a
Where ? When ?

But nothing prevents the prosecutor from launching an appeal for witnesses if the reconstruction warrants it, as far as I'm aware.

In the UK, there would very often be CCTV to assist. In the mountains in France, this would seem unlikely, and in PdL... well, between media myth and reality...

[AnneGuedes]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

You see, here in Portugal like in France, they don't do reconstructions with actors and in front of cameras (except for police cameras I suppose), may be it is related to the philosophy of inquisitorial system vs adversarial system (the second could be more "human" than the first). In criminal fictions, there are always little details that "kill" when the situation is re-enacted, no crime is perfect.

The Met ? Where ? When ?

[Carana]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

You see, here in Portugal like in France, they don't do reconstructions with actors and in front of cameras (except for police cameras I suppose), may be it is related to the philosophy of inquisitorial system vs adversarial system (the second could be more "human" than the first). In criminal fictions, there are always little details that "kill" when the situation is re-enacted, no crime is perfect.

The Met ? Where ? When ?

On another thread, Anne. Redwood from the review team.

[AnneGuedes]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

You see, here in Portugal like in France, they don't do reconstruction with actors and in front of cameras (except for police cameras). The more you imagine a
Where ? When ?

But nothing prevents the prosecutor from launching an appeal for witnesses if the reconstruction warrants it, as far as I'm aware.

In the UK, there would very often be CCTV to assist. In the mountains in France, this would seem unlikely, and in PdL... well, between media myth and reality...

An ideal reconstruction would have involved the neighbours from above who came back around 21h15 (not sure) and saw people at the Tapas but nobody in the street, the girl and her boyfriend who left at 10 from the building on the other side of FGM and saw and heard nobody as well, Mrs Carpenter who heard someone call Madeleine around 21h20 but saw no soul in FGM, JW who not only didn't see Jane T and the carrier but none of these people...
One of the potentially interesting details are the sounds. Rarely witnesses mention what they heard.
On this topic there's the terrible scream heard by the waiter. Why was he alone to hear it ?

[Carana]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

You see, here in Portugal like in France, they don't do reconstruction with actors and in front of cameras (except for police cameras). The more you imagine a
Where ? When ?

But nothing prevents the prosecutor from launching an appeal for witnesses if the reconstruction warrants it, as far as I'm aware.

In the UK, there would very often be CCTV to assist. In the mountains in France, this would seem unlikely, and in PdL... well, between media myth and reality...

An ideal reconstruction would have involved the neighbours from above who came back around 21h15 (not sure) and saw people at the Tapas but nobody in the street, the girl and her boyfriend who left at 10 from the building on the other side of FGM and saw and heard nobody as well, Mrs Carpenter who heard someone call Madeleine around 21h20 but saw no soul in FGM, JW who not only didn't see Jane T and the carrier but none of these people...
One of the potentially interesting details are the sounds. Rarely witnesses mention what they heard.
On this topic there's the terrible scream heard by the waiter. Why was he alone to hear it ?

Plus other Tapas staff, the OC staff, the Millenium staff as to when they were alerted and who by. Any guests who were in the Tapas at the time. If the purpose is to reconstruct facts, then all of these people are needed. The Smiths. Murat and anyone else who was there who could have resembled him.

Mrs Fenn should have had a reconstruction to attempt to work out where the sound of a child crying actually came from. As it is, they didn't even interview her until August, and I have found no trace of any corroboration re date and time with the friend she allegedly phoned.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and chaotic conditions can often be forgotten.

[AnneGuedes]

Re

Me:
And I find it hugely improbable that Rebelo's team did not simulate a reconstruction on their own, away from the media.

You (Anne)
This is speculation, Carana. I really don't think he did. What for ?

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But Rebelo and various others did go back to the apartment to verify certain aspects. He seems professional to me, and therefore I see no reason why he would not have attempted a simulated reconstruction.

The Met has apparently done a simulated one.

You see, here in Portugal like in France, they don't do reconstruction with actors and in front of cameras (except for police cameras). The more you imagine a
Where ? When ?

But nothing prevents the prosecutor from launching an appeal for witnesses if the reconstruction warrants it, as far as I'm aware.

In the UK, there would very often be CCTV to assist. In the mountains in France, this would seem unlikely, and in PdL... well, between media myth and reality...

An ideal reconstruction would have involved the neighbours from above who came back around 21h15 (not sure) and saw people at the Tapas but nobody in the street, the girl and her boyfriend who left at 10 from the building on the other side of FGM and saw and heard nobody as well, Mrs Carpenter who heard someone call Madeleine around 21h20 but saw no soul in FGM, JW who not only didn't see Jane T and the carrier but none of these people...
One of the potentially interesting details are the sounds. Rarely witnesses mention what they heard.
On this topic there's the terrible scream heard by the waiter. Why was he alone to hear it ?

Plus other Tapas staff, the OC staff, the Millenium staff as to when they were alerted and who by. Any guests who were in the Tapas at the time. If the purpose is to reconstruct facts, then all of these people are needed. The Smiths. Murat and anyone else who was there who could have resembled him.

Mrs Fenn should have had a reconstruction to attempt to work out where the sound of a child crying actually came from. As it is, they didn't even interview her until August, and I have found no trace of any corroboration re date and time with the friend she allegedly phoned.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and chaotic conditions can often be forgotten.

I fully agree. I looked also in vain for a trace of corroboration about the phone call to the friend. Mrs Fenn, by her behaviour, appearing to be a decent person, not at all the gossipy kind, I "decided" she had told the truth. Living in PDL, she must have been particularly sensitive to any kind of unusual noise.
The Smiths, of course, should have be asked to reconstruct.
BTW I found somebody, speaking fluently English and Portuguese, with glasses, who could "have been" Murat... On this topic also, I found no trace of trying to identifying the guy the TP3 saw.
I'm curious to know what feeling you had after reading the exchange about the "reconstruction" issue. I had a very neat one.