Author Topic: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã  (Read 39044 times)

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AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2013, 12:20:03 AM »
Lol !
“N” insiste ao “JORNAL 1” na “relação profissional” com “A”, mas ligou-lhe para casa às 23h30 da noite do crime, duas horas depois do rapto de Madeleíne. E nem à Judiciária explica porquê. Não conta as “outras actividades” que tem no Algarve, diz só que é “especialista em informática”, mas quando os inspectores o foram buscar, quarta-feira à tarde, já tinha os ficheiros dos seus dois computadores apagados.»
Do you know who N is ? She ?
Is "crime" murder ?
It's the only occurrence of "rapto", a quotation of a newspaper which has been condemned !

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2013, 01:05:01 AM »

Ferryman, a bit of rigour, please. Teach yourself Portuguese or pay a professional to translate and then come back !
I beg your pardon, Ferryman, I was mean. I wish I had time to translate the document for you.

Offline gilet

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2013, 03:00:03 AM »
Ferryman, I think the judgement is merely citing what the newspapers were claiming at the time. I do not believe there is anything in this judgement which declares that Madeleine McCann was abducted.


Offline gilet

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2013, 05:20:17 AM »
Why do you think Mr Amaral put his neck on the line Anne?
I think it's related to marialvism.

I find it most interesting that you relate the concept of Marialvism to Amaral's actions. I find myself agreeing with you.

My understanding is that the closest word (though not a perfect translation by any means) in English is probably "machismo". But it is a machismo which is tied to Portuguese history and which also comes with its own history.

It is the knight on his horse, the father seeking revenge for the death of a child, the gladiator in the arena, the bullfighter who tackles the strongest bull, the man who seeks to prove his honour and his virility. It is linked to the role of noble and serf and has strength in the south of the country and in areas of great landowning dyn a sties.  (getting round the word censor)

I can see how this might relate to Amaral. He saw his dismissal from the case as a slight to his masculinity, as a stain on his honour and he was determined to do whatever was necessary to redeem that honour.

But marialvism is not simply a question of basic machismo, or manly honour: it has a darker side too. An integral aspect of the concept is the dominance of the male over the female, an absolute need for inequality between the sexes, the practice of hegemonic masculinity. Though there is no explicit reliance on the Church in marialvism it relies on the concepts of the Immaculate Conception, Annunciation, etc. to define the woman and her role and it repeats the paternalism found in both mediaeval society and the Church to construct a role for women.

"O machismo ou exibição viril, atributo do marialva, obediência à “voz do sangue”, é incompatível com a aceitação da igualdade em soberania dos amantes." - Cardoso Pires

The machismo or display of virility, aspect of marialvism, obedience to the "voice of blood", is incompatible with an acceptance of equality in the domain of lovers"

If as you claim (and as I agree) Amaral is at least in part driven by marialvism regarding his honour, I have to wonder to what extent the equally pervasive strand of the concept (hegemonic masculinity) is also a driving factor in his make-up?

And I wonder to what extent the concept of hierarchy is relevant to Amaral?

Cardoso Pires quotes Bacelar;

"As atitudes boçais do português... não provêm tão-somente da sua boçalidade nativa mas de um certo culto snob da brutalidade e do desdém pelas coisas do espírito considerados como traços de boa autocracia."

"The attitudes of the uncultured Portuguese ... don't merely come from his native coars eness but from a certain snob worship of brutality and contempt for the things of the spirit considered traits of good autocracy."


If you believe that Amaral's action is imbued with the "honra e vergonha" (honour and shame) aspect of marialvism then surely it is fair to question to what extent other aspects of the concept underpin his actions?



From "Fado and the Place of Longing" by Richard Elliott.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 05:51:32 AM by gilet »

Offline Chinagirl

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2013, 06:47:13 AM »
Thank you for that exposition, Gilet.  I, too, did some research today on the concept of Marialvismo and read the extract you quoted. 

I would agree with you and AnneGuedes that what we have seen of Amaral's behaviour in this case seems to reveal aspects of this concept.  It would explain his intense dislike of Kate McCann -he would have seen her as the very antithesis of the ideal woman.
 
A

Offline Chinagirl

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2013, 07:48:52 AM »
Gender, Masculinity
and Power in
Southern Portugal
Social Anthropology, 5, 2, 141-158
1997
Miguel Vale de Almeida
MIGUELVALEDEALMEIDA.NET
1997

http://site.miguelvaledealmeida.net/wp-content/uploads/gender-masculinity-and-power.pdf
A

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2013, 08:12:15 AM »
In attributing Amaral's actions to " Marialvismo" I think you are attributing more nobility to the man's actions than is warranted. 

I can recall the Jaguar Car bought and flaunted with the proceeeds of the book, the earring, the birthday party etc.  And all the while owing significant sums to the state, to his own brother, his house about to be reposessed, jeaopodising the roof over his wife and daughters heads......

So before we get too romantic about his motivation, lets look at another couple of words:  Greed.  Mysogony.   

« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 08:14:05 AM by Jean-Pierre »

Offline gilet

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2013, 09:43:20 AM »
In attributing Amaral's actions to " Marialvismo" I think you are attributing more nobility to the man's actions than is warranted. 

I can recall the Jaguar Car bought and flaunted with the proceeeds of the book, the earring, the birthday party etc.  And all the while owing significant sums to the state, to his own brother, his house about to be reposessed, jeaopodising the roof over his wife and daughters heads......

So before we get too romantic about his motivation, lets look at another couple of words:  Greed.  Mysogony.   

You could be right and greed and misogyny may be the underlying factors. But Marialismo could still be relevant. It would give him the excuse to behave in that way. In a society where such machismo and homogenic masculinity is seen as something to be praised and even respected then it would be natural for people to seek such praise and respect (even if their actual motives are not actually in the honourable tradition).

Offline Eleanor

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2013, 10:18:26 AM »

No wonder he got so upset when his girl friend tried to dump him.  He threatened to kill her husband and to abduct her child.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2013, 10:24:01 AM »

Ferryman, a bit of rigour, please. Teach yourself Portuguese or pay a professional to translate and then come back !
I beg your pardon, Ferryman, I was mean. I wish I had time to translate the document for you.

Thank you Anne, appreciated.

I am grateful that there are so many here bi-lingual or even multilingual, because their ability to dissect texts in different languages brings us all greater insight and understanding

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2013, 10:31:23 AM »
It was my understanding that in Portugal freedom of speech trumped the individual's right not to be slandered and libelled so my question was whether this recent decision in favour of Murat might be taken as a promising sign from the McCanns' point of view?

I think that the reversal of  the ban on the book led people to believe this when that is not the case. As I understand the ban was overturned because the book had not yet been shown to be libellous as the case had not been heard. That ruling did not show that the book was not libellous.

That makes perfect sense Davel. 

What I find incomprehensible is that the McCanns were apparently not legally represented at the court case when the ban was overturned.     Can anyone confirm whether that is actually true please?  If it is  - I find that to be quite astonishing.

Yes, although on a nit-picking point of pedantry, there is a legal distinction between that considered libellous (adjective), meaning, tending to lower reputation, but without being actionable, and libel (noun), meaning both lowering reputation and being actionable.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2013, 10:50:32 AM »
It was my understanding that in Portugal freedom of speech trumped the individual's right not to be slandered and libelled so my question was whether this recent decision in favour of Murat might be taken as a promising sign from the McCanns' point of view?

I think that the reversal of  the ban on the book led people to believe this when that is not the case. As I understand the ban was overturned because the book had not yet been shown to be libellous as the case had not been heard. That ruling did not show that the book was not libellous.

That makes perfect sense Davel. 

What I find incomprehensible is that the McCanns were apparently not legally represented at the court case when the ban was overturned.     Can anyone confirm whether that is actually true please?  If it is  - I find that to be quite astonishing.

Yes, although on a nit-picking point of pedantry, there is a legal distinction between that considered libellous (adjective), meaning, tending to lower reputation, but without being actionable, and libel (noun), meaning both lowering reputation and being actionable.

Where do you get those interesting definitions from?

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2013, 10:54:11 AM »
li·bel·ous also li·bel·lous  (lb-ls)
adj.
Involving or constituting a libel; defamatory.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/libellous



libellous
Pronunciation: /ˈlʌɪb(ə)ləs/

(US also libelous)
Translate libellous | into French | into German | into Italian
Definition of libellous
adjective
containing or constituting a libel:
a libellous newspaper story

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/libellous



li·bel·ous  [lahy-buh-luhs]  Show IPA
adjective
containing, constituting, or involving a libel; maliciously defamatory.
Also, especially British, li·bel·lous.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libellous



libellous
(US libelous)      /ˈlaɪbələs/ adjective
     
Definition
› LAW making false or unfair statements that are likely to damage the reputation of a person or organization:
The content of the website was not judged to be libellous.
Bloggers should take care to avoid making libellous remarks.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/business-english/libellous

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2013, 10:55:25 AM »
It was my understanding that in Portugal freedom of speech trumped the individual's right not to be slandered and libelled so my question was whether this recent decision in favour of Murat might be taken as a promising sign from the McCanns' point of view?

I think that the reversal of  the ban on the book led people to believe this when that is not the case. As I understand the ban was overturned because the book had not yet been shown to be libellous as the case had not been heard. That ruling did not show that the book was not libellous.

That makes perfect sense Davel. 

What I find incomprehensible is that the McCanns were apparently not legally represented at the court case when the ban was overturned.     Can anyone confirm whether that is actually true please?  If it is  - I find that to be quite astonishing.

Yes, although on a nit-picking point of pedantry, there is a legal distinction between that considered libellous (adjective), meaning, tending to lower reputation, but without being actionable, and libel (noun), meaning both lowering reputation and being actionable.

Where do you get those interesting definitions from?

Mainly it is an inference I have drawn from reading legal summaries of cases, where the distinction seems to be quite clear.

Not sure you'd get the distinction drawn out from dictionary definitions.

But I'm quite happy to be corrected if I'm wrong ...

I see you've dived in with a dictionary definition.

Offline Benice

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2013, 10:56:58 AM »
In attributing Amaral's actions to " Marialvismo" I think you are attributing more nobility to the man's actions than is warranted. 

I can recall the Jaguar Car bought and flaunted with the proceeeds of the book, the earring, the birthday party etc.  And all the while owing significant sums to the state, to his own brother, his house about to be reposessed, jeaopodising the roof over his wife and daughters heads......

So before we get too romantic about his motivation, lets look at another couple of words:  Greed.  Mysogony.   

You could be right and greed and misogyny may be the underlying factors. But Marialismo could still be relevant. It would give him the excuse to behave in that way. In a society where such machismo and homogenic masculinity is seen as something to be praised and even respected then it would be natural for people to seek such praise and respect (even if their actual motives are not actually in the honourable tradition).

I agree with what you say Gilet.  But not only did Amaral's cultural attitudes (his honour) seriously influence his decision making, but other cultural differences worked against the McCann IMO.

No-one would  bat an eyelid at children going to bed at 7.00p.m. in the UK, but in Portugal children stay up for many hours longer as a matter of course. 

It's quite normal in the UK for priests/vicars etc to give pastoral care to parishioners suffering great anguish, but in Portugal you only call a priest if someone has died.

British 'reserve' and the 'stiff upper lip' concept is not a part of Portugese culture as far as I know.

All of the above cultural differences - together with difficulties associated with the language barrier, spelt 'bad news' for the McCanns  - as instead of 'explanations 'being given by Amaral, they were used against them to deliberately heighten suspicion. IMO

 





The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal