The 'Hate' Question.

[Benice]

You are of course entitled to your opinion and I mean no offence, but I think you may have misunderstood this paper on several levels. Dr. Goc is not saying "David killed his child". She is referring to what has been reported in the Media - the sources are very clearly listed, please feel free to check.

Also, the paper is not about Eddie the Dog, it's about MSM & their treatment of Kate McCann in comparison to Lindy Chamberlain.

Thirdly, I hope you are aware that Lindy Chamberlain has been legally cleared of any involvement in her daughter's death. It's not a matter of "certain opinion" - it's a matter Court Record.

It has been reported the bible was found open at the story of how David killed his son.
I find this ambiguous, lots of people have no biblical culture, not only in catholic countries.
Why does she insist so much on the blood and say nothing on the cadaver scent (this is what mainly impressed people since no visible blood was found) ?
I'm afraid Dr Nicola Goc in this article contributes to the rumours she pretends to denounce.
Court Records aren't impressed by rumours, but you know that public opinion is. Dr Goc has a thesis concerning Lindy Chamberlain and uses abusively Mrs McCann's case to sell it.
All this imho of course.

I see no ambiguity - she clearly states 'it has been reported'.  She IS talking about press reports.

Similarly the bible Kate McCann had was used to justify suspicions against her because of what was written on a certain page.     What the Pj did not know was that it was not her bible, and it was not given to her until some time after Madeleine had disappeared.   

[faithlilly]

In the absence of a firm confirmation that a child is dead, I can't see that there is a worse form of betrayal of any missing child than denying them the right to be regarded as a living & find-able missing child.

That is a beautifully expressed sentiment

I completely agree with Mrs B.   In the absence of any evidence to the contrary we must hope that Madeleine is still alive and being held captive.  In those circumstances therefore we must do all we can to bring her home.

What  I am failing to understand is why some people WANT the child dead.  I am reminded of something I saw, I think on twitter, a poster stating they "would be gutted if Madeleine was found alive"!   That comment, which was repeated and then copied elsewhere, made me feel sick,   I want her to be alive, to be reunited with her parents, is that so wrong?

Of course it's not wrong, it's just not very realistic. Do you really believe she is living with a caring parents, the kind of caring parents who pay someone to kidnap a child from her own family, in the middle of the night ? Does the reports of those poor women in Ohio tell you nothing of the likely fate of such an abducted child ? As Ferryman concedes :

"I will confess that I can conceive of some sort of living hell I don't want to think about too deeply and wouldn't wish on anyone."

No one wants to think of such a fate befalling any human being, let alone a child but experience tells us, if an abduction did happen, either early death or as ferryman describes it, a living hell, will be the abductees fate and burying our heads in the sand will not change that.

[Mrs. B]

Has anyone bothered to ask women such as Jaycee, Natasha, Elizabeth etc if they'd rather be dead than alive, having survived their terrible ordeal?

My bet is that they're glad to have been found alive & allowed to resume their lives & return to their families in spite of what they have been through.

Nobody has the right to assume the voice of these missing children, they ALL deserve the same chance.

[AnneGuedes]

I see no ambiguity - she clearly states 'it has been reported'.  She IS talking about press reports.

Personally I never saw being reported 1) death scent on the bible and 2) David killing his child. What I saw is the bible had been found with a bookmark on the episode where God punishes David with the death of his child (the child of the woman he loved and whose husband he got rid of).

[Mo Stache]

Has anyone bothered to ask women such as Jaycee, Natasha, Elizabeth etc if they'd rather be dead than alive, having survived their terrible ordeal?

My bet is that they're glad to have been found alive & allowed to resume their lives & return to their families in spite of what they have been through.

Nobody has the right to assume the voice of these missing children, they ALL deserve the same chance.

[AnneGuedes]

Has anyone bothered to ask women such as Jaycee, Natasha, Elizabeth etc if they'd rather be dead than alive, having survived their terrible ordeal?

My bet is that they're glad to have been found alive & allowed to resume their lives & return to their families in spite of what they have been through.

Nobody has the right to assume the voice of these missing children, they ALL deserve the same chance.

Had someone been able to ask those young girls when they were living that ordeal if the ordeal was better than being dead, I'm not sure about the answer. Two of them at least had children. Natasha's relation with her abductor is rather mysterious, she went in the open air with him and said nothing.

[debunker]

Has anyone bothered to ask women such as Jaycee, Natasha, Elizabeth etc if they'd rather be dead than alive, having survived their terrible ordeal?

My bet is that they're glad to have been found alive & allowed to resume their lives & return to their families in spite of what they have been through.

Nobody has the right to assume the voice of these missing children, they ALL deserve the same chance.

Had someone been able to ask those young girls when they were living that ordeal if the ordeal was better than being dead, I'm not sure about the answer. Two of them at least had children. Natasha's relation with her abductor is rather mysterious, she went in the open air with him and said nothing.

Are you unaware of Stockholm Syndrome?

[Benice]

I see no ambiguity - she clearly states 'it has been reported'.  She IS talking about press reports.

Personally I never saw being reported 1) death scent on the bible and 2) David killing his child. What I saw is the bible had been found with a bookmark on the episode where God punishes David with the death of his child (the child of the woman he loved and whose husband he got rid of).

I didn't say a death scent had been found on the bible.  I said the Pj were unaware that it was NOT Kate's bible or that she did not acquire it until sometime after Madeleine's disappearance - and so their decision to use it to bolster suspicion against Kate was flawed.





   

[AnneGuedes]

I see no ambiguity - she clearly states 'it has been reported'.  She IS talking about press reports.

Personally I never saw being reported 1) death scent on the bible and 2) David killing his child. What I saw is the bible had been found with a bookmark on the episode where God punishes David with the death of his child (the child of the woman he loved and whose husband he got rid of).

I didn't say a death scent had been found on the bible.  I said the Pj were unaware that it was NOT Kate's bible or that she did not acquire it until sometime after Madeleine's disappearance - and so their decision to use it to bolster suspicion against Kate was flawed.





   

Benice, I know you didn't say the scent was found on the bible. Some journalist might have invented this, I don't know, what I read was only about the police wondering about the bible being marked on David's sorrow. Remember this was the time Eddie had found the scent of death in the flat, which induced a crucial turn in the inquiry. The point was to discover whether the McCann knew Madeleine was dead or not. Rather legitimately.

[Mrs. B]

Anne, you may not have HEARD about the "smell of death on the bible" - nevertheless it WAS reported in the Media at the time, the original article has now been removed from online viewing but it's still mentioned in loads of blogs & you will STILL find a reference to it in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562575/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-flying-back-to-UK.html

John Barrett, a former Scotland Yard dog handler, also indicated that the trained dogs used in an attempt to detect a "death smell" on Mrs McCann's Bible and clothes were brought in too long after Madeleine vanished.

[AnneGuedes]

Anne, you may not have HEARD about the "smell of death on the bible" - nevertheless it WAS reported in the Media at the time, the original article has now been removed from online viewing but it's still mentioned in loads of blogs & you will STILL find a reference to it in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562575/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-flying-back-to-UK.html

John Barrett, a former Scotland Yard dog handler, also indicated that the trained dogs used in an attempt to detect a "death smell" on Mrs McCann's Bible and clothes were brought in too long after Madeleine vanished.

Mrs B., I didn't deny media suggested or said death was smelt on the bible, I said I didn't read that one. But I've not read much in fact, except for the PJ files.

[Redblossom]

Martha, don't you find it desperate, disingenuous and totally illogical let alone malicious to attribute similar sentiments to any *sceptic* that have come from one offensive tweeter? Out of hundreds or thousands of posters bloggers and other commentators in this case? I see is alot and I don't understand the motive for it, as it is a very baseless kind of argument for anyone to make. Similar comments are made like, just because you happen to post on a certain forum, for example, it surely means you agree with everything said there and therefore are guilty by association. Sorry for butting in though. Very strange state of affairs IMO.

[Carana]

I see no ambiguity - she clearly states 'it has been reported'.  She IS talking about press reports.

Personally I never saw being reported 1) death scent on the bible and 2) David killing his child. What I saw is the bible had been found with a bookmark on the episode where God punishes David with the death of his child (the child of the woman he loved and whose husband he got rid of).

I met Kate and Gerry on Friday after having made contact with them via written messages during the week. They knew I was participating in the searches that week. I felt dispirited because there appeared to be no coordination or leadership to the searches. Many people went searching without adequate local equipment, like for example people were cutting their feet on the rough terrain or on the shrubs in those locales. Many people wore sandal and walked over tough land. I never saw any police involvement in the operations carried out by civilians.

On Friday the 11th of May 2007 we heard rumours that the Portuguese were going to stop the searches. After having passed this information to Kate we met up in the Tapas bar in the resort between 9:30 and 9:45 in the morning. We met for only a half hour to 40 minutes as Kate had to attend a police interview.

During this meeting, I offered Kate a bible. This happened in the sequence of emotions that Kate was obviously feeling and after our having sat down to speak. We did not know each other well as she is predominantly my wifes friend. I am the leader of a South Wigston team run out of the Corporation for Exercise and Salvation, Leicestershire. I have a particular interest in the bible and the form in which it was written. I frequented the course ?Alpha Course? (an introduction to Christianity) a recommended to Kate some of the passages in the bible that she could rand to help comfort. There was a dedication from me to my wife on the first page, as it had previously been a gift from me to her. I have a tendency to mark pages and passages in the bible and even though this was my spouses bible, there were many marked/tagged passages relevant to the both of us. This happened before Madeleines disappearance.

I encouraged Kate to read Psalms X and XX of the Old Testament as I felt these were relevant to her. They are both believers. The Psalms reveal a confidence in God, in his justice and in the question which can be asked ?Why do bad things happen?. Psalms XX is a small oration asking Him to guide and illuminate our path in times of anguish.

The passage which is marked in my wifes bible I believe is Samuel 2:12. This passage is very significant for me and my wife but likely has so significance for Kate. I interpret this passage as saying that even though we cannot be with the two children that we have no lost, we will find them one day.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PE-PA.htm


There would seem to be a few translation errors / typos in that statement. Amongst others, "no" appears as "so".

[Redblossom]

Sad and irrational response

[AnneGuedes]

The passage which is marked in my wifes bible I believe is Samuel 2:12. This passage is very significant for me and my wife but likely has so significance for Kate. I interpret this passage as saying that even though we cannot be with the two children that we have no lost, we will find them one day. [/i]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PE-PA.htm


There would seem to be a few translation errors / typos in that statement. Amongst others, "no" appears as "so".

Yes the "so" is "no" in the portuguese version where "no lost" is "now lost". I'll ask Pamalam to correct.
I don't interpret this episode like Mr Patterson. David prays and starves in hope God will not let his child die. In vain. David surprises everyone because he doesn't accomplish the funeral rituals. He's pragmatic : his child will not return to him ;  he makes another child to Bathsheba : Salomon.