The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?

[Mrs. B]

Some of the neighbours have said that Joana was not neglected.  Why were none of those produced in Court?

And I would love to find a bakery that produces hot cakes at two o'clock in the morning.  Around here where they really do bake on the premises, start work at 6 am.

Fiesta time?

[DCI]

Some of the neighbours have said that Joana was not neglected.  Why were none of those produced in Court?

And I would love to find a bakery that produces hot cakes at two o'clock in the morning.  Around here where they really do bake on the premises, start work at 6 am.

See wrong again. According to the PJ, it was Leonor, who was supposed to have gone for cakes at two o'clock in the morning. After reporting Joana missing. In the court document!

[John]

Fiesta time?

What people must realise is that the setting is not your average English High Street but a little Portuguese village.  A very different situation.

[John]

See wrong again. According to the PJ, it was Leonor, who was supposed to have gone for cakes at two o'clock in the morning. After reporting Joana missing. In the court document!

You are correct of course, it was Leonor who went to buy her cakes at 2am the morning after Joan's disappeared but it was Joana who usually went for them with the time being reported at around 3 or 4am.

Still awaiting your proof that the appeal court kicked out the incestuous allegation claim?

[faithlilly]

Some of the neighbours have said that Joana was not neglected.  Why were none of those produced in Court?

And I would love to find a bakery that produces hot cakes at two o'clock in the morning.  Around here where they really do bake on the premises, start work at 6 am.

Seems that the individuals who spoke in glowing terms of Cipriano's parenting skills were her friends who, you may think, would not want to admit they knew she treated her children badly because didn't they nothing about it.

[Eleanor]

You are correct of course, it was Leonor who went to buy her cakes at 2am the morning after Joan's disappeared but it was Joana who usually went for them with the time being reported at around 3 or 4am.

Still awaiting your proof that the appeal court kicked out the incestuous allegation claim?

The Incest claim was kicked out at the original Trial, as seen in The Court Transcript.  It almost certainly wasn't mention at The Appeal as it had been disposed of.

I wonder sometimes if anyone actually reads my posts.

[John]

I am sorry john but that will not do.

If I didn't know you better, I would think you were trying to blind me with science.  To pull the wool over my eyes.  Why produce a Spanish/portuguese /Brazilian document with no internet address?  And in a foreign language.

This is a British forum, I am British and I am confronted with a huge document in a foreign language.

 If you claim that to be the document you have used, to say what you did on this thread, then the least you can do is to provide the webpage address.

Edited to add
Just for the record.   An enormous document was posted at about 1.50 am this morning and maybe nobody saw it except me, as it was removed early today ... in answer to my request for the source of information, a document of about 50,000 words was posted.  Not a single word of English in it, hence my indignation above.  Every word was in a foreign language, I believe Portuguese.

The document was http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano


Thank you for posting the correct address now John, with an english speaking website

Contrary to Sadie's mistaken assertion nothing has been removed.  The original post only ever containers the link to the original Portuguese decree which was naturally in Portuguese.  I also added two links to the translation of this document in English.

All the posts remain in their original form.

Acórdão do Supremo Tribunal de Justiça

Facts considered to be proved:

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

I look forward to you withdrawing those comments Sadie.

[Carana]

@ John. I asked you a question a bit further up. You may well have missed it.

It was quite simply: what evidence is there that the child actually got back home that evening?

Her village may have been normally a sleepy one, but there was a fiesta going on. Noise, alcohol, a festive atmosphere and possibly people from elsewhere.

Little Mari Luz went off to get sweets in a similar situation and never returned.

Little Ylenia was sent back to get her shampoo from the local swimming pool. If someone hadn't noticed something suspicious, no one would have thought that her mother was innocent, either.

[Carana]

Contrary to Sadie's mistaken assertion nothing has been removed.  The original post only ever contained the link to the original Portuguese decree which was naturally in Portuguese.  I also added two links to the translation of this document in English.

All the posts remain in their original form.

I look forward to you withdrawing those comments Sadie.

@ Sadie,

The Portuguese link that John posted last night is the same supreme court one concerning that case that I had found.

[John]

This is what was held to be proven by the Portuguese Court.  "…the arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] manifests socially deviant behaviour at the level of norms, values and responsibilities…".  The operative word being deviant.

e) a arguida BB manifesta comportamento socialmente desviante ao nível das normas, valores e responsabilidades,

www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

[DCI]

The Incest claim was kicked out at the original Trial, as seen in The Court Transcript.  It almost certainly wasn't mention at The Appeal as it had been disposed of.

I wonder sometimes if anyone actually reads my posts.

Funny how some read only what they want to see,  isn't it?

[John]

The Incest claim was kicked out at the original Trial, as seen in The Court Transcript.  It almost certainly wash's mention at The Appeal as it had been disposed of.

I take it you can back that statement up Eleanor?

[Eleanor]

I take it you can back that statement up Eleanor?

It's in The Trial Transcript that can be found on Joana Morais Blog.

[John]

It's in The Trial Transcript that can be found on Joana Morais Blog.

We are well past the trial stage now Eleanor.

The Court which reviewed the case held that it was unproven that she had incestuous sex on the livingroom floor on the evening that Joana disappeared.  It did not hold that she had never had incestuous sex with her brother as claimed.

As I have posted above, the Court also held that she was of deviant character.

[sadie]

@ Sadie,

The Portuguese link that John posted last night is the same supreme court one concerning that case that I had found.

Carana.  You didn't see the original, which was posted, very late.   VERY late at night and nobody saw it.  It was a Portuguese document with no English.  50,000 words long.  I copied it.

Wondered at one time if it was a joke.   To pull my leg.  But I wasted time on it.  Too much time trying to find out what it was about .  Went to bed past 3am.   

But when it had gone in the morning it took on another air.


But John is our leader.  It is hia forum .  He can do as he likes as he has proven before.




Having on the following morning seen the English part version, I realised what it was about ... an "Official Portuguese Document" carrying phoney made up details ... and  from the PT Courts.   No way was I going to waste time re reading it that with its phoney details..

Phoney because it makes claims as proof that cannot be proven.  Made up claims with NO EVIDENCE whatso ever.   Full stop.

Two of which are illustrated in my earlier post




Much of that document is pure waffle.   Written to prop up an extremely unsafe case case.  A case run by a man who later was proven as a liar in the Courts.  AMARAL is his name, ably assisted by Cristavao

Both Amaral and Cristavao have made mega bucks by writing books about these cases, Joana and Madeleines.

Edited to correct spelling.