The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie

[pegasus]

... Unless there is a longer video....

Video of total time 1h 37m 50s includes both alerts in living area of villa (two seperate periods of barking).

[sadie]

That's interesting.  I haven't got the time to look thru a long video atm tho Pegasus ... shame but Real life makes its demands

Could you post the video up., please, as a reference if nothing else.  Maybe someone else could have a good look at it and see

1)  if CCat gets thrown straight up into the air and played with?
2)  Where the papers came from?   ...... if they are indeed papers and folders.  Were they there all the time? ... or did someone carry them in ?

One thing is certain, Grime was mistaken, the dog did not alert to Ccat, but to something on that counter.

So the myth that CCat proves Madeleine died in 5A is blown straight out of the window.  Well spotted Pegasus 

Another Myth bites the dust.

[Estuarine]

That's interesting.  I haven't got the time to look thru a long video atm tho Pegasus ... shame but Real life makes its demands

Could you post the video up., please, as a reference if nothing else.  Maybe someone else could have a good look at it and see

1)  if CCat gets thrown straight up into the air and played with?
2)  Where the papers came from?   ...... if they are indeed papers and folders.  Were they there all the time? ... or did someone carry them in ?

One thing is certain, Grime was mistaken, the dog did not alert to Ccat, but to something on that counter.

So the myth that CCat proves Madeleine died in 5A is blown straight out of the window.  Well spotted Pegasus 

Another Myth bites the dust.

So far so good. Now explain away the alert to the counter or something on it?

[John]

And of course you have a link to back up that statement...?

How on earth someone with zero EVRD experience can state definitively what Eddie signalled to and how by watching a heavily edited video beats me.

Especially a moderator who is SUPPOSED to be unbiased.

A link?  Why on earth would I need a link?   I have been working with dogs longer than Mr Grime, I know how they react to scent when trained.   There was no scent on Cuddle Cat which Eddie was interested in.

As far as being unbiased is concerned, I have a strong bias against falsehoods.

[sadie]

So far so good. Now explain away the alert to the counter or something on it?

Weeks afterwards in another place entirely?

Are you suggesting that Madeleines body was in that villa?

The interesting thing would be to know who those folders and the sheet of paper, collectively or seperately, belonged to.


Even then ... did Keela check everything ? ... cos, if not, the most likely meaning of the alert is blood

If, however, Keela checked and found nothing then the possibilities are Cadavar odour, or bodily fluids such as urine, a tiny spot of spit etc.  Could be anything and without something tangiable, it is unsound to think otherwise

Nothing conclusive can be found from that scenario with Eddie alerting to Ccat the papers piled up on the counter, or as you say, possibly the counter    Folders, sitting there, ...  and a sheet of paper, but whose were they?  Eddie was NOT alerting to Ccat.

[Anna]

Weeks afterwards in another place entirely?

Are you suggesting that Madeleines body was in that villa?

The interesting thing would be to know who those folders and the sheet of paper, collectively or seperately, belonged to.


Even then ... did Keela check everything ? ... cos, if not, the most likely meaning of the alert is blood

If, however, Keela checked and found nothing then the possibilities are Cadavar odour, or bodily fluids such as urine, a tiny spot of spit etc.  Could be anything and without something tangiable, it is unsound to think otherwise

Nothing conclusive can be found from that scenario with Eddie alerting to Ccat the papers piled up on the counter, or as you say, possibly the counter    Folders, sitting there, ...  and a sheet of paper, but whose were they?  Eddie was NOT alerting to Ccat.

I believe there was a lot of folders paperwork left in the garage by the McCanns. A friend collected them
Did you know that a cadaver dog was used in the Shannon Mathews case and detected cadaver even although she was alive
sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

link didn't work but redone

[Estuarine]

Weeks afterwards in another place entirely?

Are you suggesting that Madeleines body was in that villa?

The interesting thing would be to know who those folders and the sheet of paper, collectively or seperately, belonged to.


Even then ... did Keela check everything ? ... cos, if not, the most likely meaning of the alert is blood

If, however, Keela checked and found nothing then the possibilities are Cadavar odour, or bodily fluids such as urine, a tiny spot of spit etc.  Could be anything and without something tangiable, it is unsound to think otherwise

Nothing conclusive can be found from that scenario with Eddie alerting to Ccat the papers piled up on the counter, or as you say, possibly the counter    Folders, sitting there, ...  and a sheet of paper, but whose were they?  Eddie was NOT alerting to Ccat.

I am not suggesting anything. I am just amazed at so much verbiage on EVRD and CSI dogs when you place no credence on their ability. Is that because "Gerry said" they were notoriously unreliable in the USA based on one example. Paraphrased again of course.

[pegasus]

The items in the 26 forensic clothing photographs were all in the living area while Eddie searched the living area.
Two white pillows with covers: Easy, on dining table.
Two yellow pillowcases: Easy, on dining table.
Now find, in the living area video, the plane tshirt.

[pegasus]

...Did you know that a cadaver dog was used in the Shannon Mathews case and detected cadaver even although she was alive
sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work
http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

Interesting article.
However please note it indicates that the signals by the cadaver dogs were all correct, and traced to actual deaths.
And re secondhand furniture...
The wardrobe in 5A south bedroom is fitted and likely to have been installed new not secondhand.
There was certainly no secondhand furniture in the flowerbed nor on the climbing plant.
The tiles on the lounge floor are likely to have been new when laid, not secondhand

[sadie]

I am not suggesting anything. I am just amazed at so much verbiage on EVRD and CSI dogs when you place no credence on their ability. Is that because "Gerry said" they were notoriously unreliable in the USA based on one example. Paraphrased again of course.

I think they are pretty good actually, but not always correct as in the Sharon Matthews case outlined above by Anna.

I just think that care has to be taken over the interpretation of their alerts.  They are NOT proof per se, that requires something tangiable and there aws nothing there.  NOTHING.

Also Amaral appears NOT to have understood the meanings of the alerts ... unless he was being deliberately obtuse, of course, or worse only interested in proving his "theory".

If he just didn't understand, then I hope that he doesn't end up in jail on that count, but if he deliberately spun the meaning of the alerts for his own ends ... knowing it might have put innocent people in jail

....... then I will have little sympathy. 

I do feel for a copper in jail tho.

[Anna]

I think they are pretty good actually, but not always correct as in the Sharon Matthews case outlined above by Anna.

I just think that care has to be taken over the interpretation of their alerts.  They are NOT proof per se, that requires something tangiable and there aws nothing there.  NOTHING.

Also Amaral appears NOT to have understood the meanings of the alerts ... unless he was being deliberately obtuse, of course, or worse only interested in proving his "theory".

If he just didn't understand, then I hope that he doesn't end up in jail on that count, but if he deliberately spun the meaning of the alerts for his own ends ... knowing it might have put innocent people in jail

....... then I will have little sympathy. 

I do feel for a copper in jail tho.

I was trying to point out (with the article) that Cadaver scent can be transferred from anywhere. Can you honestly say that none of the contents of that Apt ever came in contact with a cadaver or transferred via a relative, or the laundry or workers of The club never came in contact with a cadaver and what about the surgical assistant who occupied the Apt after the McCanns left and also the bleeding incidents which would leave the scent of dried blood.
The dog was tested using a cube of pork which had been soaked in petrol and set alight the dogs apparently alerted to cadaver........Pork spare ribs anyone? Too many Ifs.
 Just possibilities IMO.

[pegasus]

IMO in villa the first alert is to a pile of clothing containing same items alerted to later in gym, not to the cat.
The second alert I am not sure what it is to because I can't see what is on that dining chair.

[Carana]

A link?  Why on earth would I need a link?   I have been working with dogs longer than Mr Grime, I know how they react to scent when trained.   There was no scent on Cuddle Cat which Eddie was interested in.

As far as being unbiased is concerned, I have a strong bias against falsehoods.

That's interesting, John. What type of dogs did you work with and where? What do you think about training techniques and potential errors?

[pegasus]

Child wakes up and walks into another room leaving cat behind on bed.
Anyone got a more convincing theory of first few seconds?

[sadie]

Child wakes up and walks into another room leaving cat behind on bed.
Anyone got a more convincing theory of first few seconds?

If she woke up because of the shutter noises as suggested by someone earlier, I think that she would have taken her comforter with her

CCat was her comforter.

I think she was taken from her bed... and proabably drugged first.