Author Topic: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.  (Read 302799 times)

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Offline Benice

She didn't go out via the patio.  The open window and shutter have never been proven.

As far as SY is concerned they have been proven.  They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc.     If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.

The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:11:54 AM by John »
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

  • Guest
If and it is a bit if, she was abducted, it was a devious plan since there were members of the group wandering around constantly.  No one is going to go to that bother just to kill her so I would rule that out.  Searching scrubland down near the beach was a complete waste of time imo.  It was searched by many people on the 4/5/6 May 2007 and it was a live child they were looking for. 

eta  Benice.  SY have found nothing which can determined what happened to Maddie and that's the truth of it.

Fair points.

I believe you tend to follow the possibility she got out of the apartment and consequently disappeared.

It seems a more than possible alternative.

Offline carlymichelle

Fair points.

I believe you tend to follow the possibility she got out of the apartment and consequently disappeared.

It seems a more than possible alternative.

no matter  what did happen the mcanns   are a  100%  responsible for leaving 3  toddlers  alone  where anything  could happen and did  very selfish parenting imo

stephen25000

  • Guest
As far as SY is concerned they have been proven.  They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc.     If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.

The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.

Eye witnesses ???

Were they there when Madeleine disappeared ?

How can you rule people out, when the crime is not determined.

and you are aware of course, 'witnesses' don't always tell the truth.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:14:07 AM by John »

stephen25000

  • Guest
no matter  what did happen the mcanns   are a  100%  responsible for leaving 3  toddlers  alone  where anything  could happen and did  very selfish parenting imo

That Carlymichelle remains the essential truth.

Offline carlymichelle

That Carlymichelle remains the essential truth.

and most people   think is  totallly    horrible  that maddie told her parents she was upset and they still went out

Offline Angelo222

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As far as SY is concerned they have been proven.  They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc.     If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.

The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.

You only have Kate McCanns say so which is uncorroborated so worthless.  Since the only marks on the window were her own fingerprints then what can be inferred is that she opened or closed it.  Under those circumstances, any detective worth his salt would at the very least be suspicious.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 02:21:20 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Anna

no so when mcann supporters  insist she was abducted it makes me puzzled why do they insist she was abducted?? like it is a good thing??

Nobody thinks that her disappearance was a good thing, Carli.
What do you think would be a better/kinder explanation for her disappearance. Do you think murder or accidental death would be better?
Do you not believe the police are looking for Smithman amongst others who may have taken/abducted, Maddie?

We have heard nothing of the progress made by OG, because of the Secrecy laws, so how can we know what they have found or achieved?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

As far as SY is concerned they have been proven.  They believe the evidence of the eye witnesses i.e. Kate and Gerry McCann etc.     If they did not believe them they would not have been able to rule them out as suspects.

The fact that some members of the public completely unconnected to the case don't want to believe them is irrelevant and is proof of nothing except their own personal opinions.

Why would an abductor/burglar open the shutters/window? If they went in through the window they were at risk of being met by three screaming children wakened by the shutters being raised.

If they went in using a key or by the patio doors they risked waking three children by raising noisy shutters from the inside; three screaming children. They also risked coming eye to eye with a parent doing a 'listening at the window check', which Matthew Oldfield did at 9pm.

To those who admire SY's detecting skills;

 When they (probably) ruled out Tannerman they said he was taking his child home from the night creche. If you know the geography of the area, did you never wonder where he had been? He was heading TOWARDS the night creche on a cold and windy night with a pyjama clad child who had apparently been picked up from the night creche in Rua Direita, carried along R Joaquim Teixeira, R Primairo da Maio and into R Dr Agnostino da Silva. In other words, in a large circle. Google maps will confirm. Yes indeed, SY are indeed great detectives.



« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:13:00 AM by John »
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Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2015, 05:01:49 PM »
Apologies if someone has already pointed this out but how does Mark Williams-Thomas explain the open window and shutter if it was a woke and wandered scenario?
A very good point.
MWT's theory, as he he presents it, has two big faults...
1. It gives no explanation for the open window and shutter.
2. It gives no convincing reason for leaving the apartment.

Offline Brietta

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2015, 05:47:20 PM »
A very good point.
MWT's theory, as he he presents it, has two big faults...
1. It gives no explanation for the open window and shutter.
2. It gives no convincing reason for leaving the apartment.

Girl's Case 'May Solve McCann Mystery'
11:41, UK, Wednesday 27 February 2008

By Alex Watts

Portuguese detectives have been urged to ditch their case against Gerry and Kate McCann and re-open the investigation into a girl who disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine.

Crime expert Mark Williams-Thomas believes there are far too many similarities between the two cases for it not to be a strong line of police inquiry.

Mr Williams-Thomas, a former detective who is now a child protection specialist, said: "I can't accept that Gerry and Kate as parents of the child could have been involved in her murder - even based on the fact that over 90% of murders are domestic-related.

"What I have difficulty in understanding is they would have killed her and stored her body for at least 25 days and left no evidence.

"At the very least the body would have started to decompose, especially in a hot country. And there was a huge risk of someone finding that body."

He believes the answer to the case may lie in the disappearance of an eight-year-old Portuguese girl in 2004.

Joana Cipriano vanished from a village just seven miles from Praia da Luz, where Madeleine disappeared.

Neither body has been found.

Joana's mother and uncle were jailed for her murder, but five police officers have now been accused of forcing false confessions out of them.

Mr Williams-Thomas believes that because of the huge doubts over the convictions, whoever abducted Joana is more than likely to be behind Madeleine's disappearance.

He said he could not understand why the police are pursuing their "ludicrous" investigation into the McCanns, when such a strong line of inquiry remains open.

He added: "There's not a single case in the UK where two children who are unknown to each other have been abducted or disappeared within a period of four years in a seven-mile radius.

"On that basis it has to be a serious line of inquiry to eliminate it as a huge coincidence.

"Portugal is a small country with very, very few abductions so two young girls vanishing out of thin air with their bodies never being recovered is something that needs to be investigated."

Joana vanished on September 12, 2004, after setting off from home in the village of Figueira to collect groceries. She never returned.

Like Madeleine McCann's case, the police investigation got off to a bad start. They failed to seal off the house where she was last seen.

Joana's mother Leonor and her brother Joao were jailed for 16 years for her murder.

But they claim they were set up and police have been named as suspects in their "torture".

Cipriano alleges police beat her to make her confess. A photograph of her heavily-bruised face was published in Portuguese newspapers.

She says the interrogation took place without her lawyer present and without the knowledge of the public prosecutor.

Police claimed Joana discovered Cipriano and her brother having sex when she returned with the groceries.

They said the pair were afraid Joana would tell what she saw and killed her.

Mr Williams-Thomas says because of the doubt over the safety of the convictions, the case should be re-opened.

But to compound the Madeleine investigation further, a senior detective in the hunt is one of the five officers alleged to have extracted the confessions.

Goncalo Amaral, who is number three in the Madeleine inquiry, and his officers have been accused of torture, omission of evidence and falsification of documents.

Portugal's Ministerio Publico has not revealed who has been accused of which offence.

Mr Williams-Thomas said: "This casts huge doubt in my mind about the integrity of the investigating officer.

"Even if we work on the basis that he is innocent, given this allegation against him, he shouldn't have anything to do with the Madeleine investigation."

He stressed: "There are so many similarities between the cases it has to be eliminated.

"Therefore to consider solely Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects rather than considering all the options is ludicrous."

The former detective also heavily criticised the Portuguese police inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance.

Commenting on their emergency application to seize Gerry McCann's laptop computer and reportedly even Madeleine's favourite toy Cuddle Cat, he said: "I think it's amazing that they haven't already seized them.

"This is the whole problem with the case. They are treating Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects but aren't dealing with them as suspects.

"Why didn't they do that when she went missing? They are back-tracking.

"They are trying to recover the situation, forensically and evidentally, they lost at the first opportunity."

Another crime expert believes even if the police do charge the McCanns they will struggle to convict them - because Madeleine's body is still missing and there is no evidence that has been made public to suggest she is even dead.

Desmond Thomas, a former deputy head of Hampshire CID who is now a forensic management consultant, says he does not believe anyone will be found guilty unless a body or weapon is discovered.

He said: "I think the Portuguese police are struggling. Of course, we cannot be sure about exactly what is in the dossier they have prepared.

"But from what we know this far, if I was bringing the charges, I would be nervous about it being successful.

"The only way I can see anyone being successfully charged is if the body is found and they can link it clearly to them."

This may be some solace to the McCanns, but then Portuguese courts may have a different conviction rate to UK courts.

After all, detectives managed to "solve" Joana's murder, and there was no body or weapon found.

http://news.sky.com/story/574046/girls-case-may-solve-mccann-mystery
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2015, 05:48:07 PM »
An interesting video in which ExScotlandYard detective John O'Connor proposes a theory that the child wandered out the balcony door and to the supermarket carpark and was abducted opportunistically from there.
O'Connor's theory, just like MWT's theory, has the same two faults .....
1. No explanation for the open window and shutter.
2. No real reason for child leaving apartment.
www.justpamalam.co.uk/Sky/oconnor_120507_1650.flv

Offline pegasus

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2015, 06:14:00 PM »
Williams-Thomas and O'Connor both correctly pointed out that opportunistic abduction is far more likely than planned abduction.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2015, 06:27:04 PM »
No evidence of an open window or shutter before the last check. Madeleine would be heard if she could make a sound. These were deserted streets where you can easily be heard.  Running to the next room and screaming for help she would be heard. Fenn was in so there's only one credible conclusion - she could not be heard so she wasn't.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline jassi

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2015, 06:31:18 PM »
If she had left of her own accord, is it likely that she would have closed the patio door behind her?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future