Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?

[gilet]

From the AG archiving dispatch :


'This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.'

An excellent quote faithlilly.  That does indeed reflect the opinion by the Attorney General to the effect that the tapas-9 lied.   I wonder were they warned that the Portuguese might take things further and prosecute them for child neglect?   8-)(--)

Highly unlikely as the AG goes on to explain that this is the one charge (abandonment in Portuguese terms) that was specifically excluded from consideration.

I find this consideration that this so-called lying (never specified in those terms in the report) was of importance because it is followed with the very clear statement that there was no evidence of any crime against the McCanns.

It was also followed by very clear permission for their departure from Portugal. Had there been real concern surely the Portuguese would have refused that permission and continued to question the McCanns.

[Benice]

OK so its better than that.  Thanks John

Thousands of poeople the world over have used checking sstems at hotels etc where the staff check every half hour.  Didn't Butlins do it?  I never went there but I think I heard they did.

No-one is saying it is ideal, but a damned sight better to do it yourselves than have staff that you dont know and who might not care , do it for you.

Imo

Yes Sadie, Butlins did have a Baby Listening service.  A 'nanny' rode around on a bike and if she heard a baby crying she reported it and it was announced over the tannoy system i.e. ''Baby crying in Chalet no. 56' .   No mobile phones in those days.       That was decades ago and the baby listening service is still offered today at holiday resorts - and that can only be because there is a demand for it.   I have to say that I am far more shocked at people who sign up for this service nowadays  - knowing what happened to Madeleine  - than I ever was at the McCann's for mirroring the same service themselves.

[debunker]

Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol

And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!

Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?

The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.

I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?

Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!

[debunker]

That's what i noticed too Martha, but I cant find the wretched quote now.

"Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them".

Read the original Portuguese.
So, in short, they checked on the children but not as often as they later claimed. What is confusing or contradictory about that ?

Where does the AG say that specifically?  in fact, where does he use the word "lied" in his report?

What do you think  ' [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did' means other than that they lied ?

Read the original Portuguese.

[debunker]

Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE  ??   

No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.

[Mrs. B]

Yes, I'd be interested to see where the AG supposedly mentioned the word "lying", I just quickly checked the original version & I can't see it either. IMO, it's carefully worded to AVOID accusing them of lying. He is questioning the regularity of the checks by the group, at the same time asserting that checks did take place but & infers that they probably weren't as frequent as stated (based, seemingly, solely on the statement by Mrs. Fenn).

Witness statements can vary & even be incorrect for other reasons than lying, people get mixed up, their idea of time passed between one event & another can be distorted etc.

It's up to the reader to speculate what the AG "meant", nothing else.

[Angelo222]

I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?

Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!

You are a master of spin nurse debunker.  No official document will use the word 'lied' but the inference is most certainly there.  The Attorney Generals report makes very clear that the tapas 9 parents were untruthful » ergo THEY LIED!!!!

[Mrs. B]

No, the original does not imply that, IMO.

[debunker]

I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?

Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!

You are a master of spin nurse debunker.  No official document will use the word 'lied' but the inference is most certainly there.  The Attorney Generals report makes very clear that the tapas 9 parents were untruthful » ergo THEY LIED!!!!

Being untruthful is NOT lying. You may be untruthful by accident or ignorance. Lying required intention to deceive. This is not what the AG report says.

If some one says X lied and merely shows they were untruthful through non deceptive intent, then they have told an untruth themselves- which may be a lie!

[debunker]

That's what i noticed too Martha, but I cant find the wretched quote now.

"Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them".

So, in short, they checked on the children but not as often as they later claimed. What is confusing or contradictory about that ?

Where does the AG say that specifically?  in fact, where does he use the word "lied" in his report?

What do you think  ' [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did' means other than that they lied ?

It could mean that they deliberately lied, equally it could mean that they got their facts wrong and were mistaken.  He doesn't specify which.

I will not do a translation as it would be guesswork using Spanish, but the understanding I get from the sentence when seen in context with the two surrounding paragraphs is that there is a conflict between evidence from the McCanns and evidence from other people. Context and exact world used are important.

What is very clear from the Portuguese is that the AG did not accuse the McCanns of lying.

[faithlilly]

Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol

And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!

Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?

The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.

I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?

Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!

You really are the limit debunker ! You don't speak Portuguese but your smattering of Spanish and an internet translator qualifies you to obtain a more accurate translation than at least three Portuguese translators, is that what you are trying to tell us ?

If nothing else, for entertainment value you are absolutely priceless.   

[faithlilly]

Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE  ??   

No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.

And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.

[Benice]

If I said that in the last week I always had my mid morning cup of coffee at 11 am but the reality was that on Tuesday I had it at 11.30am would that make me a liar?

If your name was McCann - then sadly 'yes' in the eyes of some sceptics. 

 No way could any of that group have been expected to remember not only the  precise times they checked on their children every evening of every day of that week - but also the exact times the others checked! That's simply not possible. 

 Most of their references to times are preceded with the words 'around' or 'about' - denoting that they were giving their 'best' recollections.  What they couldn't guarantee was that the times they gave were accurate down to the last second.   There's nothing sinister in that.   It's perfectly normal human behaviour.

[debunker]

Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol

And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!

Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?

The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.

I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?

Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!

You really are the limit debunker ! You don't speak Portuguese but your smattering of Spanish and an internet translator qualifies you to obtain a more accurate translation than at least three Portuguese translators, is that what you are trying to tell us ?

If nothing else, for entertainment value you are absolutely priceless.   

Look at the original and find the word 'lie' in Portuguese. It is well known that all the rtanlators were allied with the [ censored word ]s. They likely put a spin on any tranlstion that needs to be looked at skeptically.

[debunker]

Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE  ??   

No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.

And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.

Your post above:

"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"