Author Topic: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review  (Read 34067 times)

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Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2013, 12:12:37 AM »
Ex-cops highly critical of the PJ include-
Mike Hames - ex SY Commander who set up the paedophilia unit
Dai Davies ex-cop and head of security at Royal Palaces
Desmond Thomas ex head of CID Hampshire police

and others.

Thank you.

I knew there were many, many instances of real experts whose views of the PJ in action led them to report that they were appalled.

Yes. I know there are others but that was what I uncovered with a cursory google. However, we must not discuss this further as it is apparently "off-topic".

Sorry it is entirely and 100% ON-TOPIC as it is one of the fundamental reasons why the fund was necessary.

Offline Faithlilly

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2013, 12:12:42 AM »
I would point out that Kate McCann cancelled what would have been only her second interview with police on the 11th of May on the grounds of her 'wellbeing' 

Actually it was Alan Pike who asked for Kate's interview to be postponed for a few days.  She had sat in the waiting room for 8 hours waiting to be interviewed.  She was then told to go home and come back the next day.  Finally when Gerry returned he told her of what had happened during Mat Oldfield's interview.

Quote
I sat in the waiting area for eight hours before I was told that it was now too late for me to be interviewed and I should go home and come back the next day. Gerry was there for thirteen hours. When he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently, it had been put to Matt that he’d handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life on Mars. Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days. The PJ couldn’t have considered it all that important: it was 6 September before I was interviewed again.

McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (pp. 123-124). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out.

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.

And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.

Among others, yes.

All builds up a picture, which was available in images as well on video and in photo form.

There are the "forensic" people who didn't even wear forensic protective gear. Even Grime who should have known better was utterly casual in this respect when working with the PJ.

There are reports of the borders not being closed, searches not being co-ordinated properly by the police.

Trying to pretend that the PJ did a wonderful job is insane. They did not.

Reports ? From where ? The tabloid press ?

The PJ made mistakes as every police force carrying out a major inquiry do but that doesn't make the great majority of the work done worthless. Madeleine, due to a lack of proper checking, if abducted, had been missing for almost an hour before the alarm was raised. That most precious measure of time, golden hour, was lost before the GNR or PJ had even heard Madeleine's name and whose fault was that  ?

Video reports, news reports, longer articles all testify to the incompetence of the PJ. There are clear failures to follow up things in the files. Rebelo is reported to have been appalled at the state the case was in when Amaral was dismissed. And so on.

Thanks though, for admitting that the PJ were making mistakes.

It is precisely because of those mistakes that the parents would have wanted to involve anyone who might be able to help.

It is the fact that certain posters here cannot understand and accept that the fear and desperation on the part of the parents of the missing child at the heart of the case on seeing those mistakes by the police that you refer to which makes their posts rather bizarre.

Everyone can see the mistakes. Every person with an ounce of empathy can understand what such mistakes would do to a traumatised parent.

Certain posters here seem utterly blind to that reality.

Rebelo was reported to have been appalled in a tabloid article, an article with many other mistakes. Shall I post it for you ?

Rebelo seems to have been so appalled by Amaral's handling of the case that he kept on the same track after taking over. The reconstruction he wished to carry out is testament to the lack of trust he placed on the veracity of the McCanns and their friend's testimony.
'She ( Kate) did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2013, 12:13:30 AM »

There are reports of the borders not being closed
Which borders, if you please ? Schengen ones ?

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.


AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2013, 12:19:44 AM »

Video reports, news reports, longer articles all testify to the incompetence of the PJ. There are clear failures to follow up things in the files. Rebelo is reported to have been appalled at the state the case was in when Amaral was dismissed. And so on.

Have you got a link about Inspector Rebelo, who belongs to the PJ btw, being appalled by the state of the case ? Do you know if he answered Mrs McCann's letter ?
Have you any information from the LC officers who directly witnessed the work of the PJ as they were using the same installations in Portimão ?

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2013, 12:20:18 AM »

There is nothing in Benice's post which relates to good or evil. Your pompous use of the term Manichaean is utterly superfluous.

Are you really suggesting that these people who are unable to show the slightest empathy towards the fear, panic and desperation that a parent of a missing child would feel are not McCann sceptics?

It is farcical to try to pretend that this inability to empathise with the McCanns does not stem from a deep seated belief that they are guilty of harming their child.
"Pompous" such a common word and moreover such a terribly vulgar mental perception ? Are you suggesting you position yourself above good and evil ?
What are you doing with your imagination capacity, Gilet ? No imagination, no empathy...

The word "pompous" was used quite deliberately because that is how I wished to describe your ridiculous use of the term "Manichaean", a term which bore no relevance whatsoever to the post that Benice made.

There is nothing in my post which suggests I position myself above good and evil. A careful reading would permit you to realise that.

You made the presumption that there was a relationship between good and evil and the use of the term Sceptic by Benice. There was AS I STATED nothing in her post which suggested that. Therefore your use of the word "Manichaean" was not just pompous (pretending to cleverness in this case) but also completely wrong.

As for empathy, it does not equate to imagination though there is a connection but it is me who is actually demonstrating empathy to the parents in their traumatic situation. I am not however empathetic towards people who show no empathy like Redblossom. .

Why should I be?

Offline TTSOFAFM

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2013, 12:20:56 AM »
And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.
Thank you Faithlily for reminding me of the John Stalker article in the Express.  I remember the one now.  The one where he was highly critical of the PJ and where he said Madeleine had been abducted and that the McCanns were not responsible.

Quote
My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.

On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.

I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.

The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing.  I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.

There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever.  To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.

In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.

All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing.  Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.

If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, ther is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.

I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.

All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order.  They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.


Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine.  That should be the aim of all concerned.

But my gut instinct still forces me to wonder: What is the secret that the Tapas Nine are so carefully hiding?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm

Offline Faithlilly

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2013, 12:21:08 AM »
@ gilet

My heart is full of empathy for a poor child whose safety was disregarded for a good steak and a few glasses of wine. I only hope her suffering was short.
'She ( Kate) did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2013, 12:24:15 AM »
@ gilet

My heart is full of empathy for a poor child whose safety was disregarded for a good steak and a few glasses of wine. I only hope her suffering was short.

You have in that post demonstrated smugness rather than empathy. You have also demostrated a total lack of hope even though there is not a shred of evidence that the poor girl is dead.

Why am I not surprised?

Offline Benice

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2013, 12:24:53 AM »

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Have I quoted about the dogs?  No. so your comment is meaningless.  By the way, Kate McCann's book has been on sale in Portugal for a good couple of years now.  It has not been banned, there are no legal writs imposed on the book or Kate McCann so I take it that what she has written is the truth and not libellous, unlike someone's book.  You know the one, I am referring to, the book where the author pens in the forward that by releasing all the facts about the case in his book, he knows that it will hinder the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The point I was making with regard to the dogs is that Kate was untruthful in her tome when she suggested cadaver scent lasted 30  days therefore everything she has written must also be approached with caution and verified independently.

As to the subject of litigation, unlike the McCanns, most ordinary people don't have a fund to bankroll them if they choose to sue and I would very much doubt libel lawyers such as Duarte undertake work on a CFA basis.

As to hindering the investigation, isn't that what Kate was warned she would be doing by not answering those pesky 48 questions ?

But there is a very, very big difference between Kate's refusal and Amaral's determination to go ahead with his book.

The former was an action done openly with total disregard for the fact that he was potentially damaging the search. It was deliberate and selfish to satisfy his honour and his bank manager.

With regard to Kate being warned that her refusal to answer the questions could damage the search then the situation is different. Being fully aware that she was not responsible for the disappearance of her child she would have known (unlike the police officer who was warning/threatening her) that her action in refusing to answer questions was not damaging the case as they were irrelevant questions which did not relate to an abductor but to herself.

You keep telling yourself that Gilet. Your support of the McCanns will still be strong but your betrayal of Madeleine will be immeasurable.

I find that remark extremely offensive.

If you cannot see the difference then I feel nothing but sorrow for you.

But you have no right whatsoever to act so pompously as to accuse me of betraying Madeleine McCann whilst you endorse the posts which show no empathy whatsoever with her or her family.

Because I believe that Madeleine was the victim of stranger abduction -  then to NOT support the McCanns is to support the abductor(s) IMO.    Thanks but no thanks.




The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2013, 12:25:29 AM »
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.



Trademark  ? 

What trademark  ? 

Offline Faithlilly

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2013, 12:27:52 AM »
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?


'She ( Kate) did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2013, 12:28:37 AM »

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Offline TTSOFAFM

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2013, 12:30:02 AM »
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.



Trademark  ? 

What trademark  ?

18 May 2007

Trademark application filed
 
The campaign to find Madeleine McCann has applied for British and European trademarks to protect its fundraising, internet and print promotions. The applications, which were filed on May 18, seek to protect the name "Madeleine’s Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned". The European application also seeks protection for the provision of social services and advice for people affected by missing children.
 
Source: The Times 14 August 2007 (link)

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2013, 12:31:21 AM »

Video reports, news reports, longer articles all testify to the incompetence of the PJ. There are clear failures to follow up things in the files. Rebelo is reported to have been appalled at the state the case was in when Amaral was dismissed. And so on.

Have you got a link about Inspector Rebelo, who belongs to the PJ btw, being appalled by the state of the case ? Do you know if he answered Mrs McCann's letter ?
Have you any information from the LC officers who directly witnessed the work of the PJ as they were using the same installations in Portimão ?

I don't have the precise report to hand but I will find it tomorrow.

In the meantime here is a description of the shambles found when Rebelo took over.

http://newsoutlines.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/inept-incompetent-im-incandescent.html

No, I don't have a reply from Rebelo to Kate McCann. Do you? Or could that be yet another example of appalling work on the part of the PJ, not even bothering to answer the questions of the mother of the missing child?

Unlike Portuguese police reports which we know were released to the public without even the sensible precaution of removing personal information (another crassly incompetent action from the PT authorities) I would not expect to be able to read the reports of LC officers.  UK police reports are sensibly confidential.


Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2013, 12:33:04 AM »

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

What a stupid comment? Do you really think the abductor carried on walking for ever? That makes you look insane.