The question of sedation

[Carana]

Why necessarily chloroform?


November 19, 2007 - 18:13

Police have announced that Ylenia, a five-year-old girl from Appenzell whose body was found in September, was poisoned with toluene - a chemical used in solvents.

Her suspected killer, a "dangerous and calculating" 67-year-old Swiss man, had prepared the crime several weeks in advance, the investigating authorities said on Monday.

"The high dose of [toluene] led to her death. Ylenia's body did not reveal any signs of a sexual attack, but this doesn't exclude the fact that the motive of the abduction may have been sexual," the examining judge, Erich Feineis, told a news conference in the eastern city of St Gallen.

Her abductor had earlier used another solvent to render the young girl unconscious.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/archive/Abducted_girl_died_of_poisoning.html?cid=6263812

[AnneGuedes]

Chloroform is part of our collective unconscious mind, since Queen Victoria had her nth child using it. It was discovered 180 years ago ! It's a solvent, like the product used by the Swiss, but nowadays, because it's dangerous, it's substituted by dichloromethane. Be sure, or try it ;) tests were done to dichloromethane also.

[Mo Stache]

Yes I understand what you saying, but would, for arguments sake, 3 minutes be enough to sedate a 3 year old child AND then still remove her from the apartment?

Anyone?

[AnneGuedes]

OMG!

The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
So if the twins, had been Chloroformed ???

DCI ! Chloroform has a very short effect.

[Carana]

Because they thought the public interest had been very much solicited and deserved it. And also the law allowed it. It was unthinkable that the McCanns, who wanted them, had access to the files and not the public. Do you agree with this ?
The British have another philosophy, this is why you don't have access to the LC files.

That's not my question, Anne.

They made the the reports of the forensic team public, e.g., they tested a stain on a bedspread. If they had done a specific test on the pillowcase, why would that not appear in the files?

That is why I'm wondering what that pillow inspection actually was. It may well have been simply sniffing it to detect any noticeable odour - but which may have dissipated by the next day.

The files show all the hair collected in various locations and packed into envelopes, but no mention of the bedding. If the bedding had been sent off in evidence bags, I find it odd that it's not part of the report.

[icabodcrane]

Anyone?

No idea, sorry 

The suggestion is that all three children were sedated, and sedated very expertly it appears  ...   the next morning the twins were up and playing with no discernable after effects 

I imagine it would take longer than three minutes to do that  (  are you refering to the 3 minute window available if the man Jane saw was the abductor  ? )

[AnneGuedes]

Hairs, finger / handprints and a test done on a bedspread were documented (even though hairs from the bed disappeared and the initial bedspread test eventually turned out to be innocuous, but that is beside the point).

If the pillowcase from her bed in 5A had been taken for any kind of test, why is that not mentioned? If a specific test had been done in situ, I haven't found any details of that either.

Hence my question.

Perhaps there was no specific test to be done. A substance on a small hankie may not have even contaminated the pillowcase.

Carana, I understand your doubts, I really do, but we can't answer them and the effect of your doubts, on this forum, is to reinforce the idea the PJ was more incompetent as the average. I find it totally unacceptable. I lost empathy for the McCann family when I read what Mrs McCann had the courage to say of officers to whom she gave no opportunity to answer : Tweedledum and Tweedledee, when your child is abducted, I thought I had an hallucination !
I think that if you can write it down clearly and argumentatively to the scientific police, they'll answer you. The better exposed, the better the chances to get an answer.
I can translate it for you.

[Benice]

Where does it mention the bedding (all the bedding) being tested? its all about the other bed, bar the pillow area. How ridculous, testing one piece.

On the single bed opposite to that from which the child disappeared, despite it being impregnated the red-coloured chemical product referred to, the search for hairs proceeded,that search having been negative.

After the recovery of hairs described above there proceeded the search for possible traces of semen, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, there being identified various [several] areas where fluorescence characteristic of this type of trace evidence was seen.

The areas where the fluorescence was seen were submitted to a "Phosphatise test" search there being a slightly positive reaction (purplish colour) only in area of the bed-cover of the single bed opposite to the bed from where the minor disappeared, a piece of that bed-cover being collected and placed inside a paper envelope in accordance with instructions issued by the Biology Section of the LPC, it being referenced as trace evidence #5;

A search was also made for possible biological traces and fibres on the single bed from where the minor disappeared, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, the result obtained having been negative.

The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative

There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

The pillow was 'inspected' for the presence of a smell - and is described as a 'search'  not a 'test'.    If it was forensically 'tested' they would have said which test was applied.

The only method of 'searching' for a smell that I know of by humans is via their noses.

[AnneGuedes]

The pillow was 'inspected' for the presence of a smell - and is described as a 'search'  not a 'test'.    If it was forensically 'tested' they would have said which test was applied.

The only method of 'searching' for a smell that I know of by humans is via their noses.

Dogs' noses are much better : one million more developped !

[Mo Stache]

No idea, sorry 

The suggestion is that all three children were sedated, and sedated very expertly it appears  ...   the next morning the twins were up and playing with no discernable after effects 

I imagine it would take longer than three minutes to do that  (  are you refering to the 3 minute window available if the man Jane saw was the abductor  ? )

Yes. If one speculates and takes the shortest known window of opportunity as a measure, then would it be possible for sedation and removal to have taken place?  Or would for example a knock on the head and removal have been quicker? Was there time enough to sedate a child is what I am trying to determine.

[AnneGuedes]

Yes. If one speculates and takes the shortest known window of opportunity as a measure, then would it be possible for sedation and removal to have taken place?  Or would for example a knock on the head and removal have been quicker? Was there time enough to sedate a child is what I am trying to determine.

I'm prone to think there was not enough time, if we believe Jane T. A knock on the head ? But she would recover quickly or not at all.

[faithlilly]

Chloroform onto a handkerchief and administered onto the subjects mouth and nose area, will not leave any trace on pillows or bedding..

Why, because you do not need a lot of it to knock you out, so someone is not going to pour a bottles worth over someone

Chloroform administered in this way would leave tell tale signs around the nose and mouth.

[sadie]

Anyone?

I think it would be possible, becos Chloroform acts very quickly

[Benice]

I'm old enough not to know very much about drugs.  But from what I read and hear - things have moved on considerably since chloroform - what with date rape drugs and kids sniffing all kinds of stuff.   It could even be that the abductor was spoilt for choice if he/they planned to use them.

[icabodcrane]

Yes. If one speculates and takes the shortest known window of opportunity as a measure, then would it be possible for sedation and removal to have taken place?  Or would for example a knock on the head and removal have been quicker? Was there time enough to sedate a child is what I am trying to determine.

It's an excellent question

We have to allow for entry to the apartment, the sedation of three children,  the opening of the shutters and window,  the lifting and removal of Madeleine  (  I hate typing that ) and then the exit of the apartment, through the carpark and out across the road  ...  all in three minutes

Could it be done ?