Was there a connection between the phone ping and the report of a child crying on Tue 1st May?

[AnneGuedes]

I agree, it's extremely deceptive. Don't know how many times I've complained about noise to the WRONG people in the past.

but not in the present ?

[Jazzy]

Can you clarify that please, Anne? Not in the present  would imply complaining to be a daily thing.

[Mrs. B]

but not in the present ?

Yes, not much to complain about where noise is concerned where I am now.

[sadie]

My own experience of this type of holiday apartment is that after a while you become used to noises and can usually determine where any particular noise is coming from.  Noises originating from directly underneath are usually much clearer than noises which originate from more distant apartments. Also, a loud noise from underneath causes a vibration.

Likewise, a resident above an apartment becomes very aware after a while of the opening and closing of sliding patio doors. They can usually tell if the sound has originated from the apartment directly underneath.

well did the noise come from apartment A or apartment B ?  both below.

Also have you taken account of Mrs Fenns age?  At her age she is likely to be deaf in some way.  At the moment there are four people in my home of about the same age as Mrs fenn.  All are deaf to some degree.  I know that at least two of us cannot tell direction of noise. 

If I remember, will ask the other two tomorrow.

[Jazzy]

Hot deleting tonight!

[sadie]

I'll try to explain what I mean

Mrs Fenn was an articulate lady described as being mentally astute by those who knew her

Her witness statement says that she heard a child crying in the McCanns apartment below her between 10.30pm and 11.45pm,  the child becoming increasingly distressed

I see no reason not to accept that statement as being accurate

You,  however,  appear to doubt it,  yet give no explanation for doing so

You seem, for some reason,   to expect Mrs Fenn to have  'proven'   her witness statement  ...  why  ?

Why do you feel it is necessary for this witness's statement to be 'backed up' before you accept it as truthful  ? 

Why do you doubt Mrs Fenn's reliability as a witness  ?

How about Jane tanners statement re. bundleman

Dont the same conditions as you espouse for Mrs Fenn apply there?

And Kate and Gerry

And all the Tapas



Why a different set of criteria for one person against all the others


Oh, I know.  They're all init aint they? .... sadie rolls eyes

[faithlilly]

How about Jane tanners statement re. bundleman

Dont the same conditions as you espouse for Mrs Fenn apply there?

And Kate and Gerry

And all the Tapas



Why a different set of criteria for one person against all the others


Oh, I know.  They're all init aint they? .... sadie rolls eyes

I think the answer to that is Mrs Fenn is an independent witness with no connection to the McCanns.

[AnneGuedes]

Can you clarify that please, Anne? Not in the present  would imply complaining to be a daily thing.

I was just kidding. "I have complained... in the past" is redundant.

[icabodcrane]

I think the answer to that is Mrs Fenn is an independent witness with no connection to the McCanns.

Well,  as it happens,  there  is a similarity between Mrs Fenn's and Jane Tanner's statement   ...   both were contradicted by Gerry McCann 

[Jazzy]

I was just kidding. "I have complained... in the past" is redundant.

 >@@(*&)

[Carana]

My own experience of this type of holiday apartment is that after a while you become used to noises and can usually determine where any particular noise is coming from.  Noises originating from directly underneath are usually much clearer than noises which originate from more distant apartments. Also, a loud noise from underneath causes a vibration.

Likewise, a resident above an apartment becomes very aware after a while of the opening and closing of sliding patio doors. They can usually tell if the sound has originated from the apartment directly underneath.

That's not my experience (quite different in some situations).

I find that there just isn't enough information to determine who she heard, nor where it was coming from.

She believed that they had just got back as she heard a door slide and soon after the crying stopped.
But the PJ didn't ask her if she'd heard the gates being opened and shut or people climbing the stairs. Wouldn't such questions have helped to clarify the situation? Or even verifying with her friend?

Whether she did hear Madeleine or a combination of several children doesn't explain why it took so long to interview her, nor why the interview didn't probe further.

[Redblossom]

That's not my experience (quite different in some situations).

I find that there just isn't enough information to determine who she heard, nor where it was coming from.

She believed that they had just got back as she heard a door slide and soon after the crying stopped.
But the PJ didn't ask her if she'd heard the gates being opened and shut or people climbing the stairs. Wouldn't such questions have helped to clarify the situation? Or even verifying with her friend?

Whether she did hear Madeleine or a combination of several children doesn't explain why it took so long to interview her, nor why the interview didn't probe further.

Sound source can be deceptive , however, when it originates from walls and floors directly next to you, the possibility of being wrong diminishes vastly. If I hear a bang from next door I know its from there, I donthave to go outside  my house to look listen and wonder, same with floors and cielings. I also think Mrs Fenn listening to the sound for so long adds credence to her testimony,she will have noticed if it was *several* or different children! It wasnt the Paynes as they had a monitor in the restaraunt, it wasnt Obriens kids as he was indoors that night, so which child do you think it was? And where? rachels flat? if so why didnt she check it for over an hour? Where does that put her statements? So, whose child do YOU think it was? And where?

[sadie]

The truth of the matter is that none of us have any idea.


Because there were two flats below Mrs fenns and another at the side adjoining .... all with a young child or young children in.

Also there were three children sharing a bedroom in the Mccann flat.  One start howling and they all would. 

Frankly I do not believe that had Madeleine wakened up, she would have wandered into the lounge or into her parents bedroom and stayed there crying. 

Madeleine is a pro-active go-getting kid; she wouldn't have hesitated, IMO, from waking her siblings up if she was lonely and cried for long.


also Mrs Fenns hearing is unlikely to have been good and could even be like 3 out of four of us .... such that she could not identify the direction the crying came from ... I usually  have no idea where sound comes from these days. 

All of four of us are in the same age group as Mrs Fenn was.



Totally unsafe, my dear Red, to say that the sound came from the Mccann flat

Totally unsafe to latch the crying and apparent length of crying to the Mccann family.  We just don't know.

[sadie]

Just why are you so obsessed with sedation?

Trying to manipulate facts are you?

Calpol does NOT sedate

[faithlilly]

Just why are you so obsessed with sedation?

Trying to manipulate facts are you?

Calpol does NOT sedate

Of course Calpol doesn't sedate and I have never claimed that it did.