Author Topic: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?  (Read 39686 times)

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Offline John

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2014, 06:04:11 PM »
So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?

Quote:

The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.

None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless.
End Quote

The translation, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent.." is a corruption of the actual Report.

What it should have been translated as is, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant act appears..."

The operative word is 'parece' which translates as 'it appears' or 'seems'.  The use of the words 'is apparent' which translates as é aparente in Portuguese is wrong in the context of the Archiving Report. If an English Court made a decision based on that corrupted translation then that decision is open to challenge too.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 06:11:30 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2014, 06:07:45 PM »
The translation, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent.." is a corruption of the actual Report.

What it should have been translated as is, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant act appears..."

The operative word is 'parece' which translates as 'it appears' or 'seems'.  The use of the words 'is apparent' which translates as é aparente in Portuguese is wrong.

they have been declared not suspects by SY...thats the most important thing...you can argue over insignificant petty details as long as you like

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2014, 06:10:14 PM »
they have been declared not suspects by SY...thats the most important thing...you can argue over insignificant petty details as long as you like


...and briefly remind us what SY has found that is of any value in solving this crime ?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2014, 06:12:12 PM »

...and briefly remind us what SY has found that is of any value in solving this crime ?
ive no idea ...neither do you...but they have discovered enough to eliminate the mccanns

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2014, 06:15:21 PM »
ive no idea ...neither do you...but they have discovered enough to eliminate the mccanns


Well as they have found zip, perhaps they should go to the source. 8((()*/

Offline John

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2014, 06:18:44 PM »
they have been declared not suspects by SY...thats the most important thing...you can argue over insignificant petty details as long as you like

It is hardly insignificant when people have been referring to this paragraph since the Report came out and holding it up as some sort of vindication.  The prosecutors were stating the facts, there were not offering an opinion.

To answer your earlier question about the overall competence of the translated files, I would say that there is a very good chance that similar one word corruptions exist which can change the meaning of the entire paragraph if not the document itself.

If you look at the offending translation it is obvious that much of the paragraph simply is not what was written in the original document.  For example, the last part of the first paragraph was translated as "...and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports." which should in fact have been correctly translated as, ...and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.".   Shit poor translating imo.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 06:28:26 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2014, 06:26:01 PM »




Offline John

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #142 on: June 14, 2014, 06:30:23 PM »
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.

Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.

"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."

which correctly translates as...

The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4645.jpg
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 06:59:52 PM by Mr Moderator »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #143 on: June 14, 2014, 06:40:31 PM »
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.

Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.

"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."

which correctly translates as...

The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4645.jpg

apparent
əˈpar(ə)nt/
adjective
adjective: apparent

    1.
    clearly visible or understood; obvious.
    "for no apparent reason she laughed"
    synonyms:   evident, plain, obvious, clear, manifest, visible, discernible, perceptible, perceivable, noticeable, detectable, recognizable, observable; More
    unmistakable, crystal clear, as clear as crystal, transparent, palpable, patent, distinct, pronounced, marked, striking, conspicuous, overt, blatant, as plain as a pikestaff, staring someone in the face, writ large, written all over someone, as plain as day, beyond (a) doubt, beyond question, self-evident, indisputable;
    informalas plain as the nose on one's face, standing/sticking out like a sore thumb, standing/sticking out a mile
    "their relief was all too apparent"
    antonyms:   unclear, obscure
    2.
    seeming real or true, but not necessarily so.
    "his apparent lack of concern"
    synonyms:   seeming, ostensible, outward, superficial, surface, supposed, presumed, so-called, alleged, professed, avowed, declared, claimed, purported, pretended, feigned; More

It may not always be obvious which meaning to choose. However, two paragraphs add context to which one is intended. "In addition..."

To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.


« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 07:01:08 PM by Carana »

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #144 on: June 14, 2014, 07:32:59 PM »
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.

Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.

"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."

which correctly translates as...

The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4645.jpg

"The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared..."  I'm sorry, but that just isn't very good English.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #145 on: June 14, 2014, 08:44:53 PM »
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.

Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.

"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."

which correctly translates as...

The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4645.jpg

this is just like a goolge translation

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #146 on: June 14, 2014, 08:48:00 PM »
this is just like a goolge translation

Oh for heavens sake.

 8-)(--) 8-)(--)

Offline Eleanor

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #147 on: June 15, 2014, 06:27:57 PM »

Have we actually got anywhere with this?  Will we ever?

The Internet Translations are definitely not to be trusted.

Offline John

Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
« Reply #148 on: June 17, 2014, 02:02:46 AM »
Have we actually got anywhere with this?  Will we ever?

The Internet Translations are definitely not to be trusted.

In fact that is not the case.  Portuguese does not translate exactly to English and vice versa, the very best we can hope for is a word for word translation and that is where automated translators like Google and Bing come into their own.  Human translators add words and meanings to sentences which might not actually exist whereas an automated translator will not.

I purposely translated the paragraph on a word for word basis which clearly indicated the use of the Portuguese word  'parece' which translates as 'it appears' or 'seems'.  The words 'is apparent' which translate as 'é aparente' in Portuguese does not appear in the original text and has been wrongly inserted by the translator.

The paragraph does not therefore state that the non-involvement of Madeline's parents is apparent but clearly does state that the non-involvement appears on the basis of...

Again, the Portuguese prosecutors who wrote the Report indicated that there were several reasons why Madeleine's parents could be excluded as suspects, they did not state that they were excluded.  A subtle but very important difference apparently not spotted by the original translator.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:05:43 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.