Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?

[Redblossom]

Exactly, Eleanor.

There are 4 options for this.

1. The interpreter got it wrong

2. The tranlsator got it wrong

3. The person who typed up the statements got it wrong

4. Or, as you say, it was altered for some inexplicable reason

Which ever way you look at it, Cats statement was altered, between her making it, and it being filed.

Red, I don't have a problem, but Cat Baker did, and for good reason IMO!

How many more are there, that have been altered?

You need to understand there is a difference between a mistake and alteration. And Nowhere in the volunteer translators text of Cat Bakers statement is the mention of the word boys. So who are you accusing of altering peoples statements.

[Redblossom]

Boys, yes. I think if CB had said "children", the interpret would have translated "crianças".
She might have feared this would be wrongly understood as having a sexual connotation. Some little girls prefer the company of boys simply because they like activities traditionally "boyish". Some boys like dolls without revealing this way sexual ambiguity !

Ok thanks Anne.
 

So that means someone did translate it as such, but none of the people we know, they interpreted it as children. just think if the statements and interpretations were all taped, how different it would all be.


Catch you later.

[Eleanor]

So who is the suspect translator here? The files were not released until 4 months after the time of the rogatory interviews! So impossible the mccannpjfiles translations were used. So who did the British or even PT police use? A non accredited translator? 
Edited

This post does not make sense.

[DCI]

So who did the British or even PT police use? A non accredited translator? 
Edited

I've asked the same question, but no answer was forthcoming.

Whoever made the DVD's, I presume would have had the translations done. After all there are English translations included in these DVD files.

So who made the DVD's for the files?

[Redblossom]

This post does not make sense.

OK,  let me make it clearer for you

1) Catriona Baker was interviewed in the Uk by British Police in April 2008 long before the files were released and which were subsequently translated by volunteers (which are out of the equation here)

2) In that interview she said she did not recall, when shown her initial statement from 6th May 2007 made to the PJ, that she had ever mentioned Madeleine playing with the boys more

3) Presumably she did not read Portuguese, so she must have been shown a translation of her original statement or have been read out a translation of it, it doesnt matter which one

4) Who translated her original statement kept in Portuguese by the PT police into English? At the time of her rogatory interview, for it to be shown her to see if she was happy with it or wanted to add or change anything? Do you know? Who is the person responsible for making her think she had said *boys* and ergo who is the rubbish translator you and dci are accusing of (deliberately) altering meanings

[Eleanor]

I've asked the same question, but no answer was forthcoming.

Whoever made the DVD's, I presume would have had the translations done. After all there are English translations included in these DVD files.

So who made the DVD's for the files?

As far as I understand, The DVDs were released by The Portuguese, but exactly what was translated  from English into Portuguese is debatable.  The DVDs appear to have been released in Portuguese because there was such a rush to translate them.  And we do know that this was done by amateurs.

[Redblossom]

I've asked the same question, but no answer was forthcoming.

Whoever made the DVD's, I presume would have had the translations done. After all there are English translations included in these DVD files.

So who made the DVD's for the files?

Are you saying the PJ who released the DVD also had everything in it translated into English? I dont think so somehow
 

The translations we have from the PT documents in the DVD on the mccannpjfiles and elsewhere  have all been done by internet volunteers. These would not have been used by either the PT police or the UK police when conducting the rogatory interviews or anything else. Both would also have used accredited translators.


PS which parts of the DVD  had been translated into English by the releasing authorities? I think you are a bit confused about some things, catch you later

[Carana]

Ok thanks Anne.
 

So that means someone did translate it as such, but none of the people we know, they interpreted it as children. just think if the statements and interpretations were all taped, how different it would all be.


Catch you later.

I'd mentioned the same thought some time earlier, either in general or on a different topic.

I very much agree with you. Between the witness, the interpreter and the police officer who were all trying to understand each other in stressed circumstances, I don't find it suprising that glitches crept in.

And the same thing would happen in similar circumstances in other parts of the world.

Some people think that the initial statements are the most likely to be correct. They might be in ideal circumstances, but these weren't ideal circumstances.

- The witnesses were in a state of shock.
- The interpreters didn't have much - if any - background information on which to base what they were listening to.
- The police officer taking the statement wouldn't have understood that much at that stage, either.


Recorded interviews would have made it so much easier for everyone.

I do hope that the PT plan to record arguido interviews goes ahead - but also for witness statements.

[Mrs. B]

Some parts of the information on the DVD were translated by the PJ as it was addressed to UK authorities. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_66.jpg

[DCI]

OK,  let me make it clearer for you

1) Catriona Baker was interviewed in the Uk by British Police in April 2008 long before the files were released and which were subsequently translated by volunteers (which are out of the equation here)

Exactly! So how did they get Catriona Baker's original statement, in English, from the PJ

2) In that interview she said she did not recall, when shown her initial statement from 6th May 2007 made to the PJ, that she had ever mentioned Madeleine playing with the boys more

3) Presumably she did not read Portuguese, so she must have been shown a translation of her original statement or have been read out a translation of it, it doesnt matter which one

During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police.

4) Who translated her original statement kept in Portuguese by the PT police into English? At the time of her rogatory interview, for it to be shown her to see if she was happy with it or wanted to add or change anything? Do you know? Who is the person responsible for making her think she had said *boys* and ergo who is the rubbish translator you and dci are accusing of (deliberately) altering meanings

During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police. Whoever put "boys" in her statement, is responsible for it.

But they are responsible for (deliberately) altering meanings. Wonder why that is?

[Carana]

Hmmm. I'm confused.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm

Seems to be a statement taken by the PJ.

The distinctions between criança(s) and meninos/meninas don't seem to be clear.

[AnneGuedes]

"criança" is technical, if someone treats you as "criança" and you're an adult, it's not flattering at all.
"menino/a" has affective connotations, if someone treats you as "menina/o", it's loving and caring, whatever your age.
The interpret would have translated either "crianças" or "meninos e meninas" if what CB meant was "children".

[Carana]

"criança" is technical, if someone treats you as "criança" and you're an adult, it's not flattering at all.
"menino/a" has affective connotations, if someone treats you as "menina/o", it's loving and caring, whatever your age.
The interpret would have translated either "crianças" or "meninos e meninas" if what CB meant was "children".

Ok.

I think that you meant to say interpreter.

But this was a context of a nanny talking about young children.

So where did "aos meninos" come into the subject matter of the statement as meaning "boys"?

Could this have been a misunderstanding?

The PT original does refer to her as "uma criança", but also later as a  "menina", but the statement also refers to "aos meninos".


Was she seriously into the company of boys at just under four years of age as opposed to that of the other little girl?

[AnneGuedes]

menino(a) refers to sex.
criança, feminine gender, refers to age.
"criança" is never translated "boy" or "girl"  but "child".
CB said "little boys" > rightly translated "meninos" > back to English "boys" (PJ) or "children" (Ines).
If she said "children" > "crianças", no alternative > back to English "children", no alternative.
If nevertheless you consider CB meant that Madeleine, though "active and sociable", "paid more attention to the children of her group" than ? to the children of other groups ?, then don't forget that the other children were babies (between 4 and 12 months).

[Redblossom]

But they are responsible for (deliberately) altering meanings. Wonder why that is?

Who? Do you actually know? who translated cat bakers statement from portuguese to english, for her to read? I doubt it, if you do please tell and put this boring business to bed
 

Once you show the proof who translated it then you can accuse them of doctoring, thats if it WAS doctored and not whatshe, cat, originally said of course, but which also begs the question what bloody difference did it make anyway, i suggest you stop making  mountains out of molehills