Author Topic: Is It Groundhog Day ?  (Read 51357 times)

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AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2013, 07:50:03 PM »
Benice, I bolded in your post the statement I agreed with as unbelievable (and I never suggested) : aided and abetted by 7 others is completely unbelievable

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2013, 07:59:26 PM »
benice is under the impression for some reason that anyone who thinks there is a possibility that madeleine  suffered an accident outwith her parents presence, must also think her parents got all their seven mates to cover it up, zzzzz

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2013, 08:19:45 PM »
benice is under the impression for some reason that anyone who thinks there is a possibility that madeleine  suffered an accident outwith her parents presence, must also think her parents got all their seven mates to cover it up, zzzzz
We have to acknowledge Benice is not alone in insisting the TP7 (-1) covered up. Absurd !

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2013, 08:28:45 PM »
We have to acknowledge Benice is not alone in insisting the TP7 (-1) covered up. Absurd !

Of course it is absurd

benice and others , more so certain others though to be fair,on here put words into peoples mouths from mouths that are not even here on this board...they  drag in all and sundry from other areas of the net and  say just because they are skeptics then all skeptics here saythe same, its pretty dire dishonest and sad, mrs b is the worst offender
 8)--))

now, if we were half as bad and reprinted here what some of the apologists posts elsewhere and how disgusting it is, there would be pandemonium, but we are more polite and diplomatic than the rabids


Offline Benice

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2013, 08:42:25 PM »
We have to acknowledge Benice is not alone in insisting the TP7 (-1) covered up. Absurd !


What?  When have I ever said the TP7 covered anything up?   And  I have no idea what (-1) means.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Carana

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2013, 08:46:38 PM »
I never suggested that and, like you, I find it unbelievable.
If SY had been asked to resume the PJ investigation instead of searching for Madeleine, they would logically have started where the Portuguese, according to the AG's report, were forced to stop. They didn't, they looked for leads, new leads, as every new sighting of Madeleine was comforting the search she could be found. About 200 leads after one year review ! It sounded as if they had done a pretty job ! Miroir aux alouettes, imo.
Now, after 2 years they've got to make a move, though those 38 persons of interest don't appear do be "enough" (they're still asking for the help of the public). Will it bring the needed evidence of, as they say, "abduction and or murder" ?
My mind is open, Benice, I've no rigid idea about what happened to Madeleine. The only certainty I have is that she's either dead or fine.


What would have been the legal basis for this happening a few years back? As far as I can work out, it's been a long process of cooperation and negotiation for the review to move on to a new investigative process.

Offline Benice

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2013, 08:54:23 PM »
Benice, I bolded in your post the statement I agreed with as unbelievable (and I never suggested) : aided and abetted by 7 others is completely unbelievable

Ahh right I see.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.    However the usual claim is that Madeleine died in the apartment and that the McCanns disposed of her body and then  asked their friends to lie for them.   The two do usually go together.   I'm sure I didn't dream all those posts about whether or not the T7 would agree to do such a stupid thing as to aid and and abet the disposal of a dead child.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2013, 09:12:49 PM »
Ahh right I see.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.    However the usual claim is that Madeleine died in the apartment and that the McCanns disposed of her body and then  asked their friends to lie for them.   The two do usually go together.   I'm sure I didn't dream all those posts about whether or not the T7 would agree to do such a stupid thing as to aid and and abet the disposal of a dead child.
Fine, so now you know, Benice, there are sceptics and sceptics. I'm sceptic about Mr Amaral's theory (I wonder whether he changed it meanwhile), I'm sceptic also about time and place of JT's sighting, I'm extremely sceptic about a 4 years old's resilience, etc. I favoured the woke and searched parents hypothesis, but it's in conflict with Eddie in the bedroom corner and I'm almost not sceptic at all concerning late Eddie.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2013, 09:16:33 PM »
I am sticking my neck out now
Don't do that, Sadie. The neck is the most fragile part of our body : think the carotid and the jugular have just a bit of skin to protect them !

Offline Benice

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2013, 10:02:57 PM »
Fine, so now you know, Benice, there are sceptics and sceptics. I'm sceptic about Mr Amaral's theory (I wonder whether he changed it meanwhile), I'm sceptic also about time and place of JT's sighting, I'm extremely sceptic about a 4 years old's resilience, etc. I favoured the woke and searched parents hypothesis, but it's in conflict with Eddie in the bedroom corner and I'm almost not sceptic at all concerning late Eddie.
[/b]

If you believe Martin Grime's description of Eddie's abilities (as I do) then it's quite clear why he places such emphasis on the fact that without corroberrating evidence to prove what Eddie alerted to -  then nothing can be taken for granted from them.   There are just too many reasons as to WHY he alerted which would have nothing whatsoever to do with Madeleine.





The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2013, 10:07:56 PM »
[/b]

 There are just too many reasons as to WHY he alerted which would have nothing whatsoever to do with Madeleine.
Try convince me ! But, careful, I'm prone to be an Eddie unconditional ;)

Offline Benice

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2013, 12:05:32 AM »
Try convince me ! But, careful, I'm prone to be an Eddie unconditional ;)

Well I can certainly try to convince you Anne, but not tonight.  It's too hot, too late and I'm too tired.   But I will get back to you.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Benice

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2013, 11:53:50 AM »
Try convince me ! But, careful, I'm prone to be an Eddie unconditional ;)

Martin Grime tells us that Eddie can detect very ancient cadaver odour - so unless the 'material' he alerted to is discovered (i.e. unless corroberrating evidence is found) we don't know how old the scent was.    For instance It could be from something that had been buried in that area -  say 50 years ago - or more.  Eddie could alert to stuff which had been buried up to a couple of feet below ground.  He could even detect the residual scent of material which itself had long since decayed away.
 
Eddie also alerted to decaying body 'bits' from living people, i.e. a torn nail part,  teeth, hair or semen. The alert near the wardrobe, was also an alert near to the bed.  As Grime states -the scent drifts and so it's not impossible that it was scent from semen residue that was alerted to.   Cleaning and washing does not eliminate the scent.     
 
 Eddie barked outside the door of the renault.   The key fob was inside the door compartment on the other side of that door,  The only person to whom the FSS could partially match the DNA found on the keyfob  was Gerry -  who is very much alive.   
 
Therefore it is incorrect to claim that whenever Eddie barked he could only have been alerting to cadaver scent from a dead person.
 
Cadaverscent is transferrable - and so could have been innocently  transferred there by any number of people - over any number of years.  There are loads of progs on TV about sniffer dogs at airports. Occasionally the drug dogs will alert to a person who is found not to have drugs on them, (or in them), and the reason given for the alert  is not that it was a false one  - but that the scent must have been transferred to them by contact with something or someone who did have direct contact with drugs.   It's the same with cadaverscent.   

Some people are more likely than others to come into contact with dead bodies and so would be more prone to be carriers of cadaver scent.   These obviously include doctors, police officers and forensic personnel amongst others.   So it cannot be ruled out that innocent cadaverscent  transferral could have happened by one or more of those people who entered 5A on 3/4 May.
 
The above comments are based on facts given to us by Martin Grime re the abilities of his dogs.  IMO the dogs are so good that it actually works against them.  e.g. the dogs can detect scent deposited decades ago.  That in itself is truly  amazing -  but is unhelpful in this instance.
 
Then there is the matter of 'cueing'.

Although it is a proven fact that cueing does happen - whether Martin Grime unconsciously cued Eddie or not -  is a matter of opinion not fact.  Personally I would feel more confident that he didn't cue his dog  -  if I had NOT known that he was on the very brink of self employment where the performance of his dogs in such a high profile case could have massive repercussions on his own future.

Tests have proved that dogs may falsely alert in places where the Handler expects an alert to occur - and have unconsciously passed that message on to their dogs.
 
For the searches to be unbiased the same amount of time and attention would have to be spent at each location and at each car.   That was clearly not the case.  Did the fact that Grime spent three times longer calling Eddie's attention back to the Renault than to the other cars eventually send a message to Eddie?  I think it may have.
 
 
 
 
 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline John

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2013, 01:25:12 PM »
Members are asked not to discuss or make comments derogatory or otherwise about other members in their absence.  Any such posts will be expunged on sight.

Admins continue to remove a number of posts which are unacceptable as they represent a breach of forum rules.  Please continue to report any posts which you feel fall into this category.  TY
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:30:00 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2013, 01:40:43 PM »


I appreciate your arguments, Benice, but I'm still not convinced and I'll try to say why.

Martin Grime tells us that Eddie can detect very ancient cadaver odour - so unless the 'material' he alerted to is discovered (i.e. unless corroberrating evidence is found) we don't know how old the scent was.    For instance It could be from something that had been buried in that area -  say 50 years ago - or more.  Eddie could alert to stuff which had been buried up to a couple of feet below ground.  He could even detect the residual scent of material which itself had long since decayed away.
Those flats blocks require very deep foundations, especially because of seismic activity. Would Eddie have alerted only in the flowerbed, it would be inconclusive, but the dog alerted in 4 places and indicated before entering the flat that he had picked back the scent he had been trained to detect.
 
Eddie also alerted to decaying body 'bits' from living people, i.e. a torn nail part,  teeth, hair or semen. The alert near the wardrobe, was also an alert near to the bed.  As Grime states -the scent drifts and so it's not impossible that it was scent from semen residue that was alerted to.   Cleaning and washing does not eliminate the scent.     
If true, then Eddie would have alerted to all flats.
 
Eddie barked outside the door of the renault.   The key fob was inside the door compartment on the other side of that door,  The only person to whom the FSS could partially match the DNA found on the keyfob  was Gerry -  who is very much alive.
Therefore it is incorrect to claim that whenever Eddie barked he could only have been alerting to cadaver scent from a dead person.

Where there are no residues and where Keela didn't alert, there the likeliness of alerting to cadaver molecules is high.

Cadaverscent is transferrable - and so could have been innocently  transferred there by any number of people - over any number of years.  There are loads of progs on TV about sniffer dogs at airports. Occasionally the drug dogs will alert to a person who is found not to have drugs on them, (or in them), and the reason given for the alert  is not that it was a false one  - but that the scent must have been transferred to them by contact with something or someone who did have direct contact with drugs.   It's the same with cadaverscent.   
Some people are more likely than others to come into contact with dead bodies and so would be more prone to be carriers of cadaver scent.   These obviously include doctors, police officers and forensic personnel amongst others.   So it cannot be ruled out that innocent cadaverscent  transferral could have happened by one or more of those people who entered 5A on 3/4 May.

5A wasn't the only flat inhabited by doctors. If Eddie, who worked for the police, alerted to any officer or forensic worker, this would have been noticed, don't you think ?

The above comments are based on facts given to us by Martin Grime re the abilities of his dogs.  IMO the dogs are so good that it actually works against them.  e.g. the dogs can detect scent deposited decades ago.  That in itself is truly  amazing -  but is unhelpful in this instance.
The dogs are so sensitive that they're of no use ? Though they have helped in many investigations ? Even here in Portugal the GNR now has a cadaver dog and a blood dog !

Then there is the matter of 'cueing'.
Although it is a proven fact that cueing does happen - whether Martin Grime unconsciously cued Eddie or not -  is a matter of opinion not fact.  Personally I would feel more confident that he didn't cue his dog  -  if I had NOT known that he was on the very brink of self employment where the performance of his dogs in such a high profile case could have massive repercussions on his own future.

Either negative or positive, the dogs' reactions were important findings. Mr Grime had no reason to favour one instead of the other, both being valuable. And unless you imagine he was corrupt (which would raise other questions), Mr Grime's first interest was to keep his dogs reliable. I remind you that Prof Harrison advised to use those dogs and to start with the flat. Have you any reason to suspect Prof Harrison ?

Tests have proved that dogs may falsely alert in places where the Handler expects an alert to occur - and have unconsciously passed that message on to their dogs.
For the searches to be unbiased the same amount of time and attention would have to be spent at each location and at each car.   That was clearly not the case.  Did the fact that Grime spent three times longer calling Eddie's attention back to the Renault than to the other cars eventually send a message to Eddie?  I think it may have.

It's not clear : nobody has seen all the video. The filming didn't start where the available video does.
These dogs' work is exhausting, they have to rest very often and it is well known that errors occur when those breaks aren't respected. Obviously the effort will have to focus on places where they globally picked up the scent, as before entering in 5A.