Is It Groundhog Day ?

[Redblossom]

 

Well said Anne, the dog findings just cant be discarded for numerous reasons and that is how it is. Unless Madeleine is ever found alive or a proven causative explanation,they remain solid grounds for reasonable suspicion. Until then, they remain solidly in the equation, even though it is to the chagrin of many

[sadie]

Why are you wumming again Red?

As you well know, the dog indications were of no use.

It has been gone over and over in earlier threads

[Benice]

Well said Anne, the dog findings just cant be discarded for numerous reasons and that is how it is. Unless Madeleine is ever found alive or a proven causative explanation,they remain solid grounds for reasonable suspicion. Until then, they remain solidly in the equation, even though it is to the chagrin of many

Quote from Martin Grime

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
End Quote

IOW Eddie could be alerting to cadaverscent, but even if he is, it means nothing because of a number of various innocent scenarios which could be the reason for the presence of this scent.    Unless forensic evidence is found to confirm the alerts  -  then NO evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from them.

Seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me.   No forensic evidence was found.

[John]

Play nicely now guys  >>  the last thing I want to have to do is to remove posts.   

[John]

Well said Anne, the dog findings just cant be discarded for numerous reasons and that is how it is. Unless Madeleine is ever found alive or a proven causative explanation,they remain solid grounds for reasonable suspicion. Until then, they remain solidly in the equation, even though it is to the chagrin of many

The dog alerts are only proof of one thing and that is that a dog can bark.  Even Martin Grime wasn't prepared to put his neck and entire reputation on the line by saying any differently.

[ferryman]

Grime deployed the dogs in places Madeleine never lived or never went near.

The only clue from the files for the reason for the inspection at the gym was that it was so that clothes could be re-tested (sic) possibly reacted to in the villa.

The only other proffered explanation is from Amaral's book.

All we can say certainly is that neither search had anything whatever to do with attempting to uncover the truth of what happened to Madeleine.

I could proffer a (highly plausible) explanation of how (and why!) those searches came about.

But I shan't ...

[faithlilly]

Grime deployed the dogs in places Madeleine never lived or never went near.

The only clue from the files for the reason for the inspection at the gym was that it was so that clothes could be re-tested (sic) possibly reacted to in the villa.

The only other proffered explanation is from Amaral's book.

All we can say certainly is that neither search had anything whatever to do with attempting to uncover the truth of what happened to Madeleine.

I could proffer a (highly plausible) explanation of how (and why!) those searches came about.

But I shan't ...

Evidence  please regarding your assumption that the clothes were 'possibly reacted to' in the villa ?

As to not divulging your 'highly plausible explanation ', I'll eat my own head if it s
1. Plausible
2. Backed by evidence.

[Rachel Granada]

Evidence  please regarding your assumption that the clothes were 'possibly reacted to' in the villa ?

As to not divulging your 'highly plausible explanation ', I'll eat my own head if it s
1. Plausible
2. Backed by evidence.

The dogs reactions were evidentially worthless without forensics to back them up.  Grime knows it, people who can read and think for themselves know it.

Going to eat your own head?

[AnneGuedes]

The dog alerts are only proof of one thing and that is that a dog can bark.  Even Martin Grime wasn't prepared to put his neck and entire reputation on the line by saying any differently.

Mr Grime didn't travel to Portugal with two dogs on his own authority nor begged the Portuguese to let him prove his dogs could bark. Prof Harrison not only was the origin of the dog project, but observed and oriented the process. So, instead of ridiculing Mr Grime who isn't MBE, honestly consider Prof Harrison who is.
If there had been human remains in the 5A, the cadaver dog wouldn't have been necessary, a simple human nose, like yours, would have been sufficient, John ;)

[Rachel Granada]

Well said Anne, the dog findings just cant be discarded for numerous reasons and that is how it is. Unless Madeleine is ever found alive or a proven causative explanation,they remain solid grounds for reasonable suspicion. Until then, they remain solidly in the equation, even though it is to the chagrin of many

What equation is that then?

pi = in the sky?

The dogs can easily be discarded, as without forensic back-up, their alerts are evidentially worthless.

[ferryman]

Evidence  please regarding your assumption that the clothes were 'possibly reacted to' in the villa ?

As to not divulging your 'highly plausible explanation ', I'll eat my own head if it s
1. Plausible
2. Backed by evidence.

Pages 2100-2102

Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.

The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila.

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm

[John]

Mr Grime didn't travel to Portugal with two dogs on his own authority nor begged the Portuguese to let him prove his dogs could bark. Prof Harrison not only was the origin of the dog project, but observed and oriented the process. So, instead of ridiculing Mr Grime who isn't MBE, honestly consider Prof Harrison who is.
If there had been human remains in the 5A, the cadaver dog wouldn't have been necessary, a simple human nose, like yours, would have been sufficient, John ;)

I am not ridiculing anyone, just making an observation.  Martin got his money regardless Anne so why should he stick his neck out one way or another when he wasn't require to do so?

Human noses are incapable of picking up on minute amounts of cadaver scent, that's why we use the doggies.   

[AnneGuedes]

Quote from Martin Grime

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
End Quote

IOW Eddie could be alerting to cadaverscent, but even if he is, it means nothing because of a number of various innocent scenarios which could be the reason for the presence of this scent.    Unless forensic evidence is found to confirm the alerts  -  then NO evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from them.

Seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me.   No forensic evidence was found.

Is the red sentence a quotation of Mr Grime ?
Mr Grime knows as we all do that without forensic corroboration the alerts wouldn't be accepted by a court as evidence of death nor of Madeleine's death. As Prof Harrison says it well, an alert or the lack of alert just might help orientating the investigation.

For a similar reason, the very ordinary sighting of a man carrying a child, without forensic corroboration, can't be accepted by a court as evidence of abduction.
It is a possibility, he (admitting one carrier and the other were the same) was seen by various people, but none of them saw his face and would recognize him, except for two persons who believed 60/80, through his carrying way, this man was possibly the child's father. A court wouldn't accept this as evidence of Mr McCann's mislead.
The extraordinary way of carrying of the first man and the uncomfortable though usual way of the second let think the child was dead. This either wouldn't be accepted by a court, in lack of forensic corroboration, as evidence of body disposal.

[AnneGuedes]

Human noses are incapable of picking up on minute amounts of cadaver scent, that's why we use the doggies.   

I'm glad you reckon that dogs have other capabilities than barking. Besides Keela would possibly bark meeting you but wouldn't when she meets blood, human blood.
But, yes, you did mock Martin Grime ;)

[DCI]

Pages 2100-2102

Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.

The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila.

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm

More errors in Statements/Translations, on that link Ferryman.

Letter regarding technical inspection of Murat villa 4-5 August
2007

Canine Inspection Report

Date 4 and 5 August 2007

Place Residence of arguido Robert Murat ... Praia da Luz - Lagos
Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; Eddy, the English Springer [Spaniel]
THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]
Today, within the scope [authority] of the domestic search performed in the current residence of
the arguido Robert Murat, canine inspections were also conducted, in the exterior gardens and
inside the residence of the arguido, at the above address.

Thus, at 19h28 of 4 May 2007, the work started in the residence gardens, with the dog EDDY, that
detects cadaver odour, examining the entire exterior grounds within the perimeter of the property, it
having been verified that the dog signalled [alerted to] nothing.

On 5 August 2007, at 15h23, the same dog examined every room in the residence, it having been
verified that nothing was signalled [alerted to].
... the present document has been duly signed: