Author Topic: Is It Groundhog Day ?  (Read 51314 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2013, 09:18:38 PM »
More errors in Statements/Translations, on that link Ferryman.

Letter regarding technical inspection of Murat villa 4-5 August
2007

Canine Inspection Report

Date 4 and 5 August 2007

Place Residence of arguido Robert Murat ... Praia da Luz - Lagos
Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; Eddy, the English Springer [Spaniel]
THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]
Today, within the scope [authority] of the domestic search performed in the current residence of
the arguido Robert Murat, canine inspections were also conducted, in the exterior gardens and
inside the residence of the arguido, at the above address.

Thus, at 19h28 of 4 May 2007, the work started in the residence gardens, with the dog EDDY, that
detects cadaver odour, examining the entire exterior grounds within the perimeter of the property, it
having been verified that the dog signalled [alerted to] nothing.

On 5 August 2007, at 15h23, the same dog examined every room in the residence, it having been
verified that nothing was signalled [alerted to].
... the present document has been duly signed:

Quite:

...attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

And

On 5 August 2007, at 15h23, the same dog examined every room in the residence, it having been
verified that nothing was signalled [alerted to].


When is something nothing, and nothing something?

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2013, 09:25:55 PM »
Quite:

...attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

And

On 5 August 2007, at 15h23, the same dog examined every room in the residence, it having been
verified that nothing was signalled [alerted to].


When is something nothing, and nothing something?


You missed the main one

Thus, at 19h28 of 4 May 2007, the work started in the residence gardens, with the dog EDDY, that
detects cadaver odour, examining the entire exterior grounds within the perimeter of the property, it
having been verified that the dog signalled [alerted to] nothing.
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2013, 09:47:01 PM »


You missed the main one

Thus, at 19h28 of 4 May 2007, the work started in the residence gardens, with the dog EDDY, that
detects cadaver odour, examining the entire exterior grounds within the perimeter of the property, it
having been verified that the dog signalled [alerted to] nothing.

Interesting.

I suppose it could mean that the dog alerted but nothing was retrieved to account for the alert.

That was actually the case.

Cuttings from the flower bed were sent to the FSS, but nothing was found ...

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2013, 10:18:07 PM »
Pages 2100-2102

Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.

The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila.

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm

Is that it ?  @)(++(*
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2013, 10:36:45 PM »
Eddie's alerts brought a change of orientation in the investigation. There's no doubt about that (see the AG's report). As a consequence the McCanns were made arguidos, which gave them rights, rights of defence, particularly on the move that had culminated with the arguido status. They were entitled to ask for a contra expertise operation : other dogs, other handler, same stuff.
Why didn't they ?

Offline Angelo222

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2013, 10:44:43 PM »
Eddie's alerts brought a change of orientation in the investigation. There's no doubt about that (see the AG's report). As a consequence the McCanns were made arguidos, which gave them rights, rights of defence, particularly on the move that had culminated with the arguido status. They were entitled to ask for a contra expertise operation : other dogs, other handler, same stuff.
Why didn't they ?

And if Amaral hadn't jumped the gun he might still be a senior detective now instead of a nobody.  C'est la vie!!!!   @)(++(*
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2013, 11:01:15 PM »
And if Amaral hadn't jumped the gun he might still be a senior detective now instead of a nobody.  C'est la vie!!!!   @)(++(*
And if the McCanns had listened to Madeleine, they might still have her with them now instead of having lost a child. C'est la vie!!!

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2013, 11:09:14 PM »
Interesting.

I suppose it could mean that the dog alerted but nothing was retrieved to account for the alert.

That was actually the case.

Cuttings from the flower bed were sent to the FSS, but nothing was found ...

Not at 19h28 on the 4 May 2007, he didn't, the work started in the residence gardens, with the dog EDDY
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:12:44 PM by DCI »
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2013, 11:14:27 PM »
Quote from Martin Grime

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
End Quote

IOW Eddie could be alerting to cadaverscent, but even if he is, it means nothing because of a number of various innocent scenarios which could be the reason for the presence of this scent.    Unless forensic evidence is found to confirm the alerts  -  then NO evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from them.

Seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me.   No forensic evidence was found.

No, that is not what it means. He does not say that unless forensic corroboration is found then the alert means nothing and could be from an *innocent* source. He is saying forensic corroboration is needed to put more weight behind the find, because obviously a dogs barks cantbe taken as evidence on their own.

Corroboration  in this case comes from Keela, ie blood. (as no physical remains were found there or anywhere else that connected the two). Keela did find blood, so for starters your argument that no forensics was found falls down.

Now, we have the possibility, that Eddie was right in his alert to cadaver scent, and Keela was right in her scent of blood, but that could mean blood shed innocently was found in the same place, so in this scenario, the corroboration still might not be evidence, if you see what I mean.
IN the same way no corroboration AND corroboration can never prove if it was innocent, in itself alone, that is, its a TOOL, but a very useful one, and cant be derided, treated with contempt or dismissed with NO evidence, as to why, rest my case.......
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 12:35:10 AM by Redblossom »

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2013, 11:18:08 PM »
Not at 19h28 on the 4 May 2007, he didn't, the work started in the residence gardens, with the dog EDDY

Keep your hair on, that was obviously a mistake, and who could blame anyone from having  the date 4 may seared through their mind when reading and translating thousands of pages, its no big deal, one click on the original PT document shows it was August 4, common sense tells anyone August 4 it was and and meant, hardly a sinister deliberate lie to make people think Murats garden was being looked into on May 4!!


Oh and dont fret, Ive emailed the pjfiles site to correct the error, so it should not give you irrelevant headaches any longer


« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 12:14:01 AM by Redblossom »

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #100 on: July 08, 2013, 11:29:43 PM »
The dogs reactions were evidentially worthless without forensics to back them up.  Grime knows it, people who can read and think for themselves know it.

Going to eat your own head?

Only Eddies alerts required physical corroboration. He, and other cadaver dogs, alert to remnant non physical scent. This is a scientifically proven fact and react to it many many months after its deposition,again, scientifically proven. Those alerts, in the absence of scientific ability to corroborate them, require physical remains to prove the alert is correct or the next nearest which is circumstantial evidence, blood. The investigators take it from there.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #101 on: July 08, 2013, 11:56:20 PM »
Only Eddies alerts required physical corroboration. He, and other cadaver dogs, alert to remnant non physical scent. This is a scientifically proven fact and react to it many many months after its deposition,again, scientifically proven. Those alerts, in the absence of scientific ability to corroborate them, require physical remains to prove the alert is correct or the next nearest which is circumstantial evidence, blood. The investigators take it from there.
According to the orthodox opinion, all this is rubbish or c'est la vie.
The doxa (the implausible abduction), that excludes a plausible woke and deliberately searched for parents, indicates that the enemy to destroy, the only one in fact, is guilt.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #102 on: July 08, 2013, 11:58:35 PM »
According to the orthodox opinion, all this is rubbish or c'est la vie.
The doxa (the implausible abduction), that excludes a plausible woke and deliberately searched for parents, indicates that the enemy to destroy, the only one in fact, is guilt.

Yes, I do think their whole actions and behaviours have been based on atonement, ...somewhat,.... though, combined with other less spiritual motivations, cough,whether it will work is another matter
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 12:01:42 AM by Redblossom »

Offline Benice

Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2013, 09:13:13 AM »
No, that is not what it means. He does not say that unless forensic corroboration is found then the alert means nothing and could be from an *innocent* source. He is saying forensic corroboration is needed to put more weight behind the find, because obviously a dogs barks cantbe taken as evidence on their own.

Corroboration  in this case comes from Keela, ie blood. (as no physical remains were found there or anywhere else that connected the two). Keela did find blood, so for starters your argument that no forensics was found falls down.

Now, we have the possibility, that Eddie was right in his alert to cadaver scent, and Keela was right in her scent of blood, but that could mean blood shed innocently was found in the same place, so in this scenario, the corroboration still might not be evidence, if you see what I mean.
IN the same way no corroboration AND corroboration can never prove if it was innocent, in itself alone, that is, its a TOOL, but a very useful one, and cant be derided, treated with contempt or dismissed with NO evidence, as to why, rest my case.......

Red, as you know - both dogs alerted to blood.

The only corroberration Keela can give is to confirm that Eddie alerted to blood - and that is what Grime claims when both dogs alert at the same place.  This is because Keela ONLY alerts to blood.

But both Eddie and Keela also alerted to blood from living people.  i.e. innocent sources.   So without corroberrating evidence to prove otherwise, all their 'dual' alerts indicate is that someone bled in the apartment - but whether it was from a simple injury or whether it was from someone who died - no-one can say.

With regard to Eddie alone - there are also the other 'number of given scenarios' which Grime mentions - i.e. the possibilty of an ancient deposit being alerted to, cross contamination from an outside source, body 'bits' from live people etc etc .    All of which prevent the conclusion from being made that Madeleine's body or anyone's body was ever at the places where Eddies alerts were made.     If those are not the 'given scenarios' that Grime is referring  to below then WHAT scenarios is he alluding to?

Grimes said
 My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios
End Quote


My statement that in Eddie's case there were no forensics is based on what Grime says here:

Grime states

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
END QUOTE

Therefore IMO it is correct to say no forensic evidence was found as a result of alerts made only by Eddie.

You will notice in the videos that when Keela and Eddie both alert -  Grime says 'this is indicative of the detection of blood'.    However, when Eddie alerts on his own, Grime is very careful not to say 'this is an alert to a cadaver'.  Instead he says Eddie has alerted to  'the things he has been trained to find'.   This is because Grime knows that an alert by Eddie does not necessarily prove that a cadaver was ever in that spot - which is why he keeps emphasing in his reports that the alerts have no evidential value unless they are corroberrated. ( i.e. with a cadaver.)

The dogs are excellent tools but that is all they are.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Is It Groundhog Day ?
« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2013, 10:42:05 AM »

The dogs are excellent tools but that is all they are.
Well, Benice, is it like this ?
Since Mr Grime knows that Eddie can react to dried blood (from a person who bled but didn't necessarily died of bleeding), he uses Keela. As Redblossom said, Keela is a kind of forensic for Eddie's alerts. If Keela doesn't react where Eddie alerted, then it is cadaver. This is what happened strikingly in the bedroom corner, which confirmed the global feeling of Mr Grime when he noted how excited Eddie was, when A5's door was open. Mr Grime knew that Eddie had picked it up.

Now, and it's a totally different topic, 1) Eddie's nose detects volatile smelling molecules, too minute for us, humans, to identify and for forensics to analyse and 2) the characteristic odour of death is the same for all humans, so without forensic analysis it's impossible to identify the body that provided the odour.
Without analysable particles for DNA, no court would accept the cadaver smell as evidence of a person's death. If a person dies without bleeding, if for some reason the body was removed, Eddie will alert in vain.
Though the presence of cadaver odour in a flat from where vanished a little girl without leaving a trace seems too much for a coincidence.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 10:46:06 AM by AnneGuedes »