Is It Groundhog Day ?

[sadie]

You are aware Anne that Tasmin Silences grandpa owned 5A and lived there with his wife?

He died in hospital.  It was suggested on one forum that the pyjamas he died in were laundered and sent back home to stored in the wardrobe.

I have no idea whether this is true, or not, but there has to be a question mark.

[icabodcrane]

You are aware Anne that Tasmin Silences grandpa owned 5A and lived there with his wife?

He died in hospital.  It was suggested on one forum that the pyjamas he died in were laundered and sent back home to stored in the wardrobe.

I have no idea whether this is true, or not, but there has to be a question mark.

For heaven's sake sadie !

You are not suggesting that we should consider a theory by  virtue of the fact that  it was  'on a forum once'   ? 

If you have no idea whether it is true or not,  then why even mention it  ?

[sadie]

I dont offer it as proof but as a possibiity.     It was mentioned on a forum.  I qualified it well, if you noticed.

Take it or leave it, Icabod.
...........but if it is true, then it puts a completely different perspective on the case.

As I said, take it or leave it.





Anyway, hasn't it been proven over and over, that what happened with Eddie and Keela, in 5A and in the car has no solid evidence behind that either?  But you guys keep pushing it.

Pot calls the kettle black again

[ferryman]

DCI


Not at 19h28 on the 4 May 2007, he didn't, the work started in the residence gardens, with the dog EDDY

Doh!

4th May ...

I completely missed that.

And even after you highlighted it, too ....

[DCI]

Doh!

4th May ...

I completely missed that.

And even after you highlighted it, too ....

No worries Ferryman 

[Benice]

Well, Benice, is it like this ?
Since Mr Grime knows that Eddie can react to dried blood (from a person who bled but didn't necessarily died of bleeding), he uses Keela. As Redblossom said, Keela is a kind of forensic for Eddie's alerts. If Keela doesn't react where Eddie alerted, then it is cadaver. This is what happened strikingly in the bedroom corner, which confirmed the global feeling of Mr Grime when he noted how excited Eddie was, when A5's door was open. Mr Grime knew that Eddie had picked it up.

No sorry Anne - it's not like that.   Cadaverscent does not necessarily come from a dead person, it is also emitted from torn fingernail parts, teeth and bodily fluids etc. which have parted company with their living owners.    That is the problem (along with all the other scenarios quoted by Grime) which in the absence of corroberratting evidence, prevents any firm conclusions from being arrived at.

With regard to the alert in the bedroom, Martin Grime states (in that room) that scent drifts, dependent on temperature etc and so the corner of the bedroom cannot be reliably pinpointed as a source.

As Eddie also reacts to blood as well as cadaverscent -  how would anyone know which scent 'excited' him at the door. 

[AnneGuedes]

As Eddie also reacts to blood as well as cadaverscent -  how would anyone know which scent 'excited' him at the door.

It has already been explained, Benice.
Keela only reacted behind the sofa. Eddie reacted in 3 other places and, behind the sofa, possibly because of cadaver scent and not because of blood. The general scent wasn't blood. We know that thanks to Keela.

Would it be reasonable to imagine Prof Harrison MBE, in an attack of madness, thought human remains were decomposing in the flat ? Why do you think he called the dogs then ?

Imo he wasn't properly looking for Madeleine's blood (even if found in the flat, it was proof of nothing), he was just contemplating the possibility (a study hypothesis) that both dogs would (or not) react on the same spots, the blood eventually revealing identity through DNA. Not really a proof Madeleine died, but a very solid indication.

If you're the person who cleans your place, you know were the dust is. It's a bit the same with volatile molecules, they're pushed by draughts towards corners and there they stay. This is what Mr Grime explains in the video. The same phenomenon exists in trailing because of the wind.

[ferryman]

The whole discussion is meaningless anyway, because, as Grime says, the place Eddie reacts isn't necessarily the source of a scent:

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

(Martin Grime)

[Benice]

It has already been explained, Benice.
Keela only reacted behind the sofa. Eddie reacted in 3 other places and, behind the sofa, possibly because of cadaver scent and not because of blood. The general scent wasn't blood. We know that thanks to Keela.

Would it be reasonable to imagine Prof Harrison MBE, in an attack of madness, thought human remains were decomposing in the flat ? Why do you think he called the dogs then ?

Imo he wasn't properly looking for Madeleine's blood (even if found in the flat, it was proof of nothing), he was just contemplating the possibility (a study hypothesis) that both dogs would (or not) react on the same spots, the blood eventually revealing identity through DNA. Not really a proof Madeleine died, but a very solid indication.

If you're the person who cleans your place, you know were the dust is. It's a bit the same with volatile molecules, they're pushed by draughts towards corners and there they stay. This is what Mr Grime explains in the video. The same phenomenon exists in trailing because of the wind.

Anne, Grimes always sent Eddie in first.   If he didn't alert, Grime didn't deploy Keela at all, because he knew that if any blood was present Eddie would have alerted.     If Eddie did alert he then sent Keela in.    If she alerted in the same place then Grime knew this could be not a cadaverscent alert, because Keela only alerted to blood.  So whenever both dogs alerted at the same place - he assumed blood.   The key fob - to which both dogs alerted, is an example.

If Keela did NOT alert at the same place, then Grime assumed Eddie may have alerted to cadaverscent.   However, because of all the different scenarios of WHY and HOW cadaverscent could be present - scenarios which would be entirely unassociated with Madeleine, and because cadaverscent can also come from material that is from living people, the alert on its own does not and cannot prove that a cadaver was ever at that place - UNLESS corroborating evidence was found.    This did not happen.

Quote from Martin Grime - for the millionth time

 My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
End quote

None of Eddie's single alerts were confirmed with corroborating evidence.

Why don't you believe Martin Grime?

[ferryman]

Benice:

Anne, Grimes always sent Eddie in first.

Ah!

There are always exceptions.

In the gym, Keela was deployed first, and didn't react!

Then Eddie was deployed.

What the hell was Eddie looking for?

And what was Eddie expected to find that he didn't find in the prior inspection at the villa, where all clothes were present and on site?

[Redblossom]

Red, as you know - both dogs alerted to blood.

The only corroberration Keela can give is to confirm that Eddie alerted to blood - and that is what Grime claims when both dogs alert at the same place.  This is because Keela ONLY alerts to blood.

But both Eddie and Keela also alerted to blood from living people.  i.e. innocent sources.   So without corroberrating evidence to prove otherwise, all their 'dual' alerts indicate is that someone bled in the apartment - but whether it was from a simple injury or whether it was from someone who died - no-one can say.

With regard to Eddie alone - there are also the other 'number of given scenarios' which Grime mentions - i.e. the possibilty of an ancient deposit being alerted to, cross contamination from an outside source, body 'bits' from live people etc etc .    All of which prevent the conclusion from being made that Madeleine's body or anyone's body was ever at the places where Eddies alerts were made.     If those are not the 'given scenarios' that Grime is referring  to below then WHAT scenarios is he alluding to?

Grimes said
 My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios
End Quote


My statement that in Eddie's case there were no forensics is based on what Grime says here:

Grime states

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.
END QUOTE

Therefore IMO it is correct to say no forensic evidence was found as a result of alerts made only by Eddie.

You will notice in the videos that when Keela and Eddie both alert -  Grime says 'this is indicative of the detection of blood'.    However, when Eddie alerts on his own, Grime is very careful not to say 'this is an alert to a cadaver'.  Instead he says Eddie has alerted to  'the things he has been trained to find'.   This is because Grime knows that an alert by Eddie does not necessarily prove that a cadaver was ever in that spot - which is why he keeps emphasing in his reports that the alerts have no evidential value unless they are corroberrated. ( i.e. with a cadaver.)

The dogs are excellent tools but that is all they are.

Rubbish
keela is not there to confirm eddie has alerted to blood, lesson one, if eddie only alerts to blood, then they would take samples from where he alerts! Keela is only required to find blood as back up if its there,wherever eddie alerts, ie to cadaver scent, no use confusing yourself

[Redblossom]

You are aware Anne that Tasmin Silences grandpa owned 5A and lived there with his wife?

He died in hospital.  It was suggested on one forum that the pyjamas he died in were laundered and sent back home to stored in the wardrobe.

I have no idea whether this is true, or not, but there has to be a question mark.

 

[Redblossom]

The whole discussion is meaningless anyway, because, as Grime says, the place Eddie reacts isn't necessarily the source of a scent:

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

(Martin Grime)

And? So?
the cadaver scent originated *somewhere* in the room but could have ended up coalesced in another part, changes and means nothing

see ya for now

[ferryman]

And? So?

And so ...

Eddie could have been reacting to traces of blood from Paul Gordon's shaving cut (for example) ...

[Redblossom]

And so ...

Eddie could have been reacting to traces of blood from Paul Gordon's shaving cut (for example) ...

omg

Eddie the wonder dog alerts in the bedroom the living room the verandah the garden all cos of paul  gordons blood but keela doesnt, and SHES the expert singular dog trained to find blood
 

Ok mate, filll yer boots, ha ha funniest post of the day,

Straws + clutch + laughing

Whatever  way u try and twist it, eddie alerted to several places that keela didnt
 ERGO NOT BLOOD, its not rocket science


and if you go on to say oh well he was reacting to bitten fingernails, semen, urine, etc oh well ,thats great, he only did that in the place a child went missing and no where else but it means nothing!! You really need to  Get a grip!