Is It Groundhog Day ?

[Benice]

Here you are again.  Twisting words ... enlarging on what Ferryman actually said.  Changing the meaning.

You should know by now that Eddie alerts to blood, and cadervescence.  Cadervescence includes cadavar odour and other bodily fluids.

What Ferryman said is totally possible.  He used a limited sample area.  Had he included the garden outside ... then his hypothesis for that area, if he chose to give one, would most probably be totally different. 

For instance that little quite private garden of 5a would make a stopping off area for some bloke anxious to relieve himself on his way home after a drink; somewhere pretty private.

And dont laugh your sneering head off, cos I witnessed it happening in my front garden in the middle of the night. 

It only had to happen once in the months berfore hand ... and it would have been alerted to.

I have often wondered why they didn't dig up the garden.  I can understand them not wanting to dig up floors inside apartments and concrete patios/paths etc. to establish whether the alerts were due to ancient deposits etc.   but why not the garden when we are told by Martin Grime that Eddie can detect odours from several feet below ground?    He alerted there - so why not dig down?   Very odd.

[Benice]

omg

Eddie the wonder dog alerts in the bedroom the living room the verandah the garden all cos of paul  gordons blood but keela doesnt, and SHES the expert singular dog trained to find blood
 

Ok mate, filll yer boots, ha ha funniest post of the day,

Straws + clutch + laughing

Whatever  way u try and twist it, eddie alerted to several places that keela didnt
 ERGO NOT BLOOD, its not rocket science


and if you go on to say oh well he was reacting to bitten fingernails, semen, urine, etc oh well ,thats great, he only did that in the place a child went missing and no where else but it means nothing!! You really need to  Get a grip!

Yes very strange that Red.  We are told that Eddie and Keela could detect the tiniest minutest traces of blood and cadaverscent from as far back as the 1960's in Keela's case and IIRC over a hundred years ago in Eddie's case.  - in fact traces so small that even the FSS couldn't detect them (e.g. the curtains in 5A)  and so why no alerts anywhere else?   Are we to believe that in all those other apartments, Murats home and garden, the beach, the cliffs  and everywhere else that Eddie searched  in PdL that not a soul had ever spilt a single drop of blood in any of those places in the last 60 years - or that no-one had died etc.??        Surely that can't be so.

Have you any thoughts on this Red?

BTW personally I do believe Grime's claims about the abilities of his dogs.

[Carana]

Eddie alerted in the McCann's bedroom, Keela didn't, therefore Eddie must have alerted to cadaver scent. It really is that simple.

I don't find it "that simple". He's trained to find the scent of human decomposition, but that doesn't necessarily mean a cadaver, just that it could be.

[Matthew Wyse]

Yes very strange that Red.  We are told that Eddie and Keela could detect the tiniest minutest traces of blood and cadaverscent from as far back as the 1960's in Keela's case and IIRC over a hundred years ago in Eddie's case.  - in fact traces so small that even the FSS couldn't detect them (e.g. the curtains in 5A)  and so why no alerts anywhere else?   Are we to believe that in all those other apartments, Murats home and garden, the beach, the cliffs  and everywhere else that Eddie searched  in PdL that not a soul had ever spilt a single drop of blood in any of those places in the last 60 years - or that no-one had died etc.??        Surely that can't be so.

Have you any thoughts on this Red?

BTW personally I do believe Grime's claims about the abilities of his dogs.

The dogs according to my reading of the situation were only useful in certain situations but proving that they were effective in the absence of further evidence was impossible.  Alerts may be one thing but how many instances are there where they have either missed an alert or made a false one?  Nobody will ever know and that included their handler.

[John]

I don't find it "that simple". He's trained to find the scent of human decomposition, but that doesn't necessarily mean a cadaver, just that it could be.

This is the rock that the [ censored word] argument will always perish on.  You cannot say Eddie alerted thus there was a cadaver in the car or the apartment. Even Martin Grime isn't so naive as to believe that.

[stephen25000]

This is the rock that the [ censored word] argument will always perish on.  You cannot say Eddie alerted thus there was a cadaver in the car or the apartment. Even Martin Grime isn't so naive as to believe that.

Likewise John you cannot say it didn't.

The lack of corroborative D.N.A. evidence does not mean the dogs can be ignored.

There is no proof anything else happened, and personally I don't think anything will change, unless something extraordinary happens in this case.

[faithlilly]

This is the rock that the [ censored word] argument will always perish on.  You cannot say Eddie alerted thus there was a cadaver in the car or the apartment. Even Martin Grime isn't so naive as to believe that.

You cannot say there categorically was a cadaver but you can say that it is a distinct possiblity.

[John]

Likewise John you cannot say it didn't.

The lack of corroborative D.N.A. evidence does not mean the dogs can be ignored.

There is no proof anything else happened, and personally I don't think anything will change, unless something extraordinary happens in this case.

I accept that.  There can only be one conclusion therefore and that is that the dog alerts in this particular situation are meaningless and should not be used as proof of anything.

[Matthew Wyse]

You cannot say there categorically was a cadaver but you can say that it is a distinct possiblity.

Just as you cannot say there categorically was life on Mars but you can say it is a distinct possibility.

And that means what exactly??

[John]

Just as you cannot say there categorically was life on Mars but you can say it is a distinct possibility.

And that means what exactly??

Absolutely nothing...one way or the other.  The dog alerts are meaningless.

[faithlilly]

Just as you cannot say there categorically was life on Mars but you can say it is a distinct possibility.

And that means what exactly??

I think when a child is missing with no apparent evidence of an abduction the alerts, when put in context, carry slightly more weight than the evidence of life on any other planet.

[stephen25000]

I accept that.  There can only be one conclusion therefore and that is that the dog alerts in this particular situation are meaningless and should not be used as proof of anything.

Those are the only indications that exist of anything in this case.

As I said last week all parties should be open to investigation in this case. Clearly this isn't happening.

As it stands I don't see the mystery of Madeleine's disappearance being solved.

Redwood's request last week for people to look out for Madeleine said everything, he and the rest of the team haven't a clue ( and I know I've said that before ).

[Carana]

I think when a child is missing with no apparent evidence of an abduction the alerts, when put in context, carry slightly more weight than the evidence of life on any other planet.

In context, I don't see how the alerts mean anything significant.

Eddie could have been alerting to:
- the scent of something that had been in contact with someone who had died;

- the scent of anything other than the physical presence of blood (if one is to believe that Keela is always accurate);

- the dog's perception of what the handler was tasking him to do.

Even if Eddie had reacted to the lingering scent of some decomposing substance, without corroboration, it could have been anything that had been removed even the week prior to the search. And the apartment had been let out just prior to the search and the statements of any post-disappearance occupants aren't in the files, as far as I'm aware.

He could have been reacting to anything.... even a dropped bandaid that had been removed after the previous occupants had moved out.

[faithlilly]

In context, I don't see how the alerts mean anything significant.

Eddie could have been alerting to:
- the scent of something that had been in contact with someone who had died;

- the scent of anything other than the physical presence of blood (if one is to believe that Keela is always accurate);

- the dog's perception of what the handler was tasking him to do.

Even if Eddie had reacted to the lingering scent of some decomposing substance, without corroboration, it could have been anything that had been removed even the week prior to the search. And the apartment had been let out just prior to the search and the statements of any post-disappearance occupants aren't in the files, as far as I'm aware.

He could have been reacting to anything.... even a dropped bandaid that had been removed after the previous occupants had moved out.

Then why no alerts in any other of the apartments where similar human detritus would also have been deposited ?

[Benice]

Then why no alerts in any other of the apartments where similar human detritus would also have been deposited ?

Why not indeed - as no alerts anywhere else flies in the face of Martin Grime's claims about his dogs.

My own opinion is that whether the dogs alert or not is largely dependent on how much time they are allowed to search or are encouraged to search.     Also in this case I think 'unconscious cueing' was a real possiblity.