So if the abduction occurred at 9.15pm lets look at the movements.

[John]

If Jane Tanner is correct and she actually had a visual with the abductor at 9.15pm and while Gerry McCann was still stood on the street just below the patio gate then the window of opportunity was really tight.
-----
Operative word being IF, there is nothing to prove she saw Madeleine, and if these pros were watching and staking out they would not have taken so many risks, thats the point of watching and staking, you go in when its least likely you will be caught, seems for some  they went in at the most dangerous time!

But that's the whole point.  The abductor and/or his accomplice were not to know that Gerry McCann would pause outside the apartment to chat or that Jane Tanner would choose that moment to visit her own apartment.  Sorry about the pun but the window of opportunity was never going to be ideal thus why they decided to go for it the moment Gerry left the apartment.

The alternative scenario of course is that the abductor was already in the apartment when Gerry arrived at about 9.12pm having chosen to make his move after observing Matthew do his rounds at 9pm.  Support for this comes in the form of the opened bedroom door which Gerry closed to within 10cm before leaving the apartment. 

So the bottom line is this, if the opened bedroom door signified the presence of an intruder and Gerry actually saw Madeleine in her bed then the abductor must have been there hiding.

[AnneGuedes]

In both cases there's no time for a sedation (Madeleine) that would last for more than a few minutes.

[Chinagirl]

If she was sedated this could have taken place BEFORE Gerry made his check (if the abductor was already in the apartment).

[icabodcrane]

Let's assume for a minute that there was an abduction. 

Gerry is adamant that when he checked the three children at around 9.10pm that he had sight of Madeleine.  Taking this at face value then we must accept that she was still in the apartment at that time.

If Jane Tanner is correct and she actually had a visual with the abductor at 9.15pm and while Gerry McCann was still stood on the street just below the patio gate then the window of opportunity was really tight.

This leads me to believe that the apartment and the parents movements were being monitored.  When Matt did the first check he simply walked to a point in the car park where he could listen at the shutter. I have a feeling that this wasn't picked up by the abductors and that they were monitoring the movements up to and from the patio door.  When they saw Gerry go in at about 9.12pm to do the check they would have been ready to pounce.  When he came out the go ahead was given and the abductor made for the front of the apartment assuming the coast was then clear and that Gerry had returned to the tapas.  We know of course that the coast was not clear, not only had Gerry stopped on the pavement but Jane Tanner was on her way to her own apartment to see Russell.

Matt did a further check after 9.30pm and talks of the room being lighter as he actually entered the apartment this time.  But how could he have known this as he hadn't been in previously?

No  ... that doesn't work John

When Gerry went into the apartment to do his check  (  and no-one else had done an inside check beford him, remember  )  he said that the first thing he noticed was that the door to the children's bedroom was opened further than they had left it

So  the  'abductor'  had already entered hadn't he  ?  .... how else can we explain the children's bedroom door being opened too wide  ?

[icabodcrane]

But that's the whole point.  The abductor and/or his accomplice were not to know that Gerry McCann would pause outside the apartment to chat or that Jane Tanner would choose that moment to visit her own apartment.  Sorry about the pun but the window of opportunity was never going to be ideal thus why they decided to go for it the moment Gerry left the apartment.

The alternative scenario of course is that the abductor was already in the apartment when Gerry arrived at about 9.12pm having chosen to make his move after observing Matthew do his rounds at 9pm.  Support for this comes in the form of the opened bedroom door which Gerry closed to within 10cm before leaving the apartment. 

So the bottom line is this, if the opened bedroom door signified the presence of an intruder and Gerry actually saw Madeleine in her bed then the abductor must have been there hiding.

hmm

What you are doing there is posing two entirely contradictory theories

Either the apartment was being  'monitored'  (  as you suggested in your opening post  ...in which case the  'abductor'  would have chosen the most opportune time to enter   )  or the the apartment was  NOT  being  'monitored'   and the  'abductor'  found himself there at the worse time possible  (  and having to hide whilst the father of the child he intended to snatch stood  gazing at her lovingly  )   

You can't have it both ways

[Albertini]

Working purely from the statements of Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins, and Jane Tanner,and adding the time as we proceed we can estimate the following -

Gerry McCann left the Tapas bar 9:05 pm
Arrived at gate at bottom of stairs 9:06
Climbed stairs, entered apartment and went to bedroom 9:06.30s
Looked at children and had “proud father” moment 9:07
Used toilet 9:08
Left apartment, closing doors, went down stairs, met Jez Wilkins 9:09
Talked to Jez Wilkins 9:09 - 9:13 pm
Jane Tanner left Tapas bar 9:10 pm
JT arrived bottom of stairs, saw and passed the two men 9:11
JT saw abductor carrying child across top of road 9:11.05s

There is therefore, on their own timings, just two minutes and five seconds for the intruder to get in, seize Madeleine, get out again, and make his way round to the top of the road. To walk from the front door or window of the apartment to the left behind the low wall, then across the car park, then right to the corner of the street takes around 45 seconds. and a further 5 seconds to cross the street.

He has therefore around one minute and twenty seconds to enter, commit the crime, and exit. This is an important point for the understanding of what happened.

Let it be stated once again.
If the man seen by Jane Tanner was the “abductor’ and was carrying Madeleine, as the McCanns insist, he had available to him the time from Gerry McCann’s leaving the apartment to the sighting by Jane Tanner. And no more.

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right,
which is the way he would have approached her in the bed.
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.
• Walk to the left along the path in front of the apartment, walk straight ahead
across the car park, and then walk to the right along the road, and cross the
street in front of Jane Tanner, the father of the very child he had just abducted, and
another man who has his own child in a buggy.

Taking into account the travelling time, he has around one minute and twenty seconds in which to achieve the first seven items on the list.

[icabodcrane]

Working purely from the statements of Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins, and Jane Tanner,and adding the time as we proceed we can estimate the following -

Gerry McCann left the Tapas bar 9:05 pm
Arrived at gate at bottom of stairs 9:06
Climbed stairs, entered apartment and went to bedroom 9:06.30s
Looked at children and had “proud father” moment 9:07
Used toilet 9:08
Left apartment, closing doors, went down stairs, met Jez Wilkins 9:09
Talked to Jez Wilkins 9:09 - 9:13 pm
Jane Tanner left Tapas bar 9:10 pm
JT arrived bottom of stairs, saw and passed the two men 9:11
JT saw abductor carrying child across top of road 9:11.05s

There is therefore, on their own timings, just two minutes and five seconds for the intruder to get in, seize Madeleine, get out again, and make his way round to the top of the road. To walk from the front door or window of the apartment to the left behind the low wall, then across the car park, then right to the corner of the street takes around 45 seconds. and a further 5 seconds to cross the street.

He has therefore around one minute and twenty seconds to enter, commit the crime, and exit. This is an important point for the understanding of what happened.

Let it be stated once again.
If the man seen by Jane Tanner was the “abductor’ and was carrying Madeleine, as the McCanns insist, he had available to him the time from Gerry McCann’s leaving the apartment to the sighting by Jane Tanner. And no more.

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right,
which is the way he would have approached her in the bed.
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.
• Walk to the left along the path in front of the apartment, walk straight ahead
across the car park, and then walk to the right along the road, and cross the
street in front of Jane Tanner, the father of the very child he had just abducted, and
another man who has his own child in a buggy.

Taking into account the travelling time, he has around one minute and twenty seconds in which to achieve the first seven items on the list.

Don't mean to be pedantic,  but when Gerry went into the apartment through the patio doors  that night   (  according to his  ammended statement   )  he says that he immediately saw that  the door to the children's bedroom was opened wider than he had left it  ...  so ...  'assuming'  that Madeleine had woken and opened the door herself,    his first port of call that night was his and Kate's bedroom  (  on the off-chance that Madeleine had wondered in there  )

It was only after   he had checked their  own  bedroom,    and confirmed that the reason for the children's bedroom door being open too wide was not because Madeleine had opened it to go into mum and dad's bed ... did he actually go into the children's room   ... at which point,  for some unexplained reason,  he stopped worrying at all   about the door  being open too  wide   

Just to be clear

[faithlilly]

Don't mean to be pedantic,  but when Gerry went into the apartment through the patio doors  that night   (  according to his  ammended statement   )  he says that he immediately saw that  the door to the children's bedroom was opened wider than he had left it  ...  so ...  'assuming'  that Madeleine had woken and opened the door herself,    his first port of call that night was his and Kate's bedroom  (  on the off-chance that Madeleine had wondered in there  )

It was only after   he had checked their  own  bedroom,    and confirmed that the reason for the children's bedroom door being open too wide was not because Madeleine had opened it to go into mum and dad's bed ... did he actually go into the children's room   ... at which point,  for some unexplained reason,  he stopped worrying at all   about the door  being open too  wide   

Just to be clear

This has always been a bugbear for me. If Gerry knew that Madeleine or the twins hadn't opened the door who exactly did he think had ?

[Benice]

Working purely from the statements of Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins, and Jane Tanner,and adding the time as we proceed we can estimate the following -

Gerry McCann left the Tapas bar 9:05 pm
Arrived at gate at bottom of stairs 9:06
Climbed stairs, entered apartment and went to bedroom 9:06.30s
Looked at children and had “proud father” moment 9:07
Used toilet 9:08
Left apartment, closing doors, went down stairs, met Jez Wilkins 9:09
Talked to Jez Wilkins 9:09 - 9:13 pm
Jane Tanner left Tapas bar 9:10 pm
JT arrived bottom of stairs, saw and passed the two men 9:11
JT saw abductor carrying child across top of road 9:11.05s

There is therefore, on their own timings, just two minutes and five seconds for the intruder to get in, seize Madeleine, get out again, and make his way round to the top of the road. To walk from the front door or window of the apartment to the left behind the low wall, then across the car park, then right to the corner of the street takes around 45 seconds. and a further 5 seconds to cross the street.

He has therefore around one minute and twenty seconds to enter, commit the crime, and exit. This is an important point for the understanding of what happened.

Let it be stated once again.
If the man seen by Jane Tanner was the “abductor’ and was carrying Madeleine, as the McCanns insist, he had available to him the time from Gerry McCann’s leaving the apartment to the sighting by Jane Tanner. And no more.

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right,
which is the way he would have approached her in the bed.
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.
• Walk to the left along the path in front of the apartment, walk straight ahead
across the car park, and then walk to the right along the road, and cross the
street in front of Jane Tanner, the father of the very child he had just abducted, and
another man who has his own child in a buggy.

Taking into account the travelling time, he has around one minute and twenty seconds in which to achieve the first seven items on the list.

If Gerry and Jez were were talking for 5 minutes, and Jane Tanner passed them after they had been there say for 4.1/2 minutes, then that would have given the abductor around 4 minutes.   That's a long time.

IMO even a couple of minutes would be enough time, especially if Madeleine was passed over the wall in front of the door and handed to someone else.  That person would be able to walk straight to the entrance of the carpark - and cut out having to first walk along the path in front of the apartments.

Apart from Gerry's definite time of 9.05 - all the other times are best estimates - and so to it's not possible to quote accurate times as you appear to have done.

This is one of the major problems that would arise in a reconstruction.   The number of different variations that are possible because people could not give accurate times are enormous.   

[Albertini]

If Gerry and Jez were were talking for 5 minutes, and Jane Tanner passed them after they had been there say for 4.1/2 minutes, then that would have given the abductor around 4 minutes.   That's a long time.

IMO even a couple of minutes would be enough time, especially if Madeleine was passed over the wall in front of the door and handed to someone else.  That person would be able to walk straight to the entrance of the carpark - and cut out having to first walk along the path in front of the apartments.

Apart from Gerry's definite time of 9.05 - all the other times are best estimates - and so to it's not possible to quote accurate times as you appear to have done.

This is one of the major problems that would arise in a reconstruction.   The number of different variations that are possible because people could not give accurate times are enormous.

Well Jane says in her first statement she left 5 minutes after Gerry.  That then fixes the time that Jane walked past Gerry & Jez:

She remembers that at about 21h10 Gerald left the restaurant  to go to the apartment to check on the children. Five minutes later, the witness left, to go to her apartment to see whether her daughters were OK. At this moment she saw Gerry talking to an Englishman called Jez whom they had got to know during the holidays. They played tennis with him.

She passed by them, having set off 5 minutes after Gerry left, knowing that Gerry had already been in the apartment to check his children and do his other stuff and then talk to Jez.

[Benice]

Well Jane says in her first statement she left 5 minutes after Gerry.  That then fixes the time that Jane walked past Gerry & Jez:

She says 5 to 10 mins in her rog statement.  And let's not forget that she was still at the table when they were discussing why Gerry was taking so long.    IMO it would be a while after 5 mins before people noticed that he hadn't come back and began commenting on it - as 5 mins would not be an unusually long time.

[Albertini]

She says 5 to 10 mins in her rog statement.  And let's not forget that she was still at the table when they were discussing why Gerry was taking so long.    IMO it would be a while after 5 mins before people noticed that he hadn't come back and began commenting on it - as 5 mins would not be an unusually long time.

Ooh yes i forgot the newly discovered McCann Miracle Memory Improvement Syndrome.

What is it Laurie Levenson,  a Law professor says:

"Never trust an eyewitness whose memory gets better over time"

[Benice]

Ooh yes i forgot the newly discovered McCann Miracle Memory Improvement Syndrome.

What is it Laurie Levenson,  a Law professor says:

"Never trust an eyewitness whose memory gets better over time"

She also says 5 to 10 mins in her statement of 10th May.

Quote
They ordered dinner and waited for the starters when, about 21h10, Gerald McCann left the restaurant having gone to the apartment to see his children. Five or ten minutes later the deponent left, having gone to her apartment to check that all was well with her girls. At that time she observed Gerald McCann talking to an English citizen called Jez that they had met on these holidays. He played tennis with them. She doesn't know if they saw her giving the assurance that, on her part, she did not start a conversation with either of them.
Unquote

I take it you've never heard anyone say ' ...you mentioning that just jogged my memory.....'' or ''....What you just said brought something back to me that I'd completely forgotten about''... etc etc. ?     

That's normal human behaviour, but once again I see the McCanns and their friends are denied the same human behaviours that everyone else is allowed to have without question.


 



 

[AnneGuedes]

If she was sedated this could have taken place BEFORE Gerry made his check (if the abductor was already in the apartment).

Possibly, if Mr McCann pretended he looked into the bedroom when in fact he just went to the bathroom.
Nevertheless a sedation lasting at least one hour needs some equipment.

[AnneGuedes]

once again I see the McCanns and their friends are denied the same human behaviours that everyone else is allowed to have without question.
 

Very true, Benice, but this is your work : in 805 posts there's not one in which you don't turn their behaviours superhuman ! You've convinced us..