So if the abduction occurred at 9.15pm lets look at the movements.

[faithlilly]

They had no reason to collude - they'd done nothing wrong.

Their very first statements were given while they were all in shock.  And it's not unusual for things to come back to people a while after a traumatic event had happened - when they've calmed down slightly and have time to really put their minds to thinking back and going over what happened.

I thought one of Amarals reasons for suspicion was because in his opinion there were too many discrepancies in their statements.  That doesn't sound like any 'polishing' had been done to me.

It's also a fact that people do not all remember the same events exactly the same as one-another as different people have vastly different powers of recall and also of assessing times and distances.   Russell's statement confirms that - because if Jane and Gerry had left 'almost at the same time'  she would not have still been at the table, when they started wondering where he'd got to because he'd been gone much longer than usual.  But she was.

Just as well the McCanns were never charged. Any defence lawyer worth his salt would have ripped their and their friend's statements to shreds.

[AnneGuedes]

  Russell's statement confirms that - because if Jane and Gerry had left 'almost at the same time'  she would not have still been at the table, when they started wondering where he'd got to because he'd been gone much longer than usual.  But she was.

This is not a fact !
Though they were in shock, they thought of contacting media, closing borders, etc.
And I think it's fine !  But don't argue they said bullshit because they were in a state of shock.

[Benice]

This is not a fact !
Though they were in shock, they thought of contacting media, closing borders, etc.
And I think it's fine !  But don't argue they said bullshit because they were in a state of shock.

Of course they would be in shock.  Wouldn't any human being?   Oh I keep forgetting, the McCanns and their friends are not allowed to be affected by trauma like the rest of the human race

If Jane left at almost the same time as Gerry, then how did she know about Kate's comment that he had probably turned the TV on to see the football - which she thought could be the reason why he'd been gone so long.  JT would not have known about any of the comments that the group made about where he'd got to.   But she did which proves she could not have left at the same time as Gerry, and that meant Russell was mistaken.

He wasn't lying - that is what he first thought had happened.    But if he spoke to Jane about it IMO she would say   ''No - we didn't leave almost at the same time, because if you remember I was still there when we were wondering where Gerry had got to.''   And Russell would accept that.   

There is nothing odd about that -  it happens all the time when more than one person are trying to remember back - especially to something which was not important at the time and so they had no need to make a point of remembering it while it was happening.

           

[Albertini]

Of course they would be in shock.  Wouldn't any human being?   Oh I keep forgetting, the McCanns and their friends are not allowed to be affected by trauma like the rest of the human race

If Jane left at almost the same time as Gerry, then how did she know about Kate's comment that he had probably turned the TV on to see the football - which she thought could be the reason why he'd been gone so long.  JT would not have known about any of the comments that the group made about where he'd got to.   But she did which proves she could not have left at the same time as Gerry, and that meant Russell was mistaken.

He wasn't lying - that is what he first thought had happened.    But if he spoke to Jane about it IMO she would say   ''No - we didn't leave almost at the same time, because if you remember I was still there when we were wondering where Gerry had got to.''   And Russell would accept that.   

There is nothing odd about that -  it happens all the time when more than one person are trying to remember back - especially to something which was not important at the time and so they had no need to make a point of remembering it while it was happening.         

But at what point do you judge witness contradictions or, as Menezez says, "lies" to be suspicious?

At what point do you accept that collusion and the describing of other people's actions as witness malpractice which harms the truth from coming out and makes the search for a missing child more difficult, and at what point do you regard that as suspicious?

Becuase the way you seem to be able to try and explain all of these contradictions makes the use of witness statements in an investigation, any investigation, completely worthless.

A point has to be reached where the weight of contradictions and lies leads investigators to be suspicious of the testimony given and the witnesses giving them.

But apparently not to you.

[John]

hmm

What you are doing there is posing two entirely contradictory theories

Either the apartment was being  'monitored'  (  as you suggested in your opening post  ...in which case the  'abductor'  would have chosen the most opportune time to enter   )  or the the apartment was  NOT  being  'monitored'   and the  'abductor'  found himself there at the worse time possible  (  and having to hide whilst the father of the child he intended to snatch stood  gazing at her lovingly  )   

You can't have it both ways

Oh but I can.   The apartment could still have been monitored and the abductor could still have found himself there at the worst possible time.  Unless he had a time machine he was not to know that Gerry McCann would carry out a proper check immediately after Matthew had listened at the shutter.  There was always going to be an inherent risk whatever time he or they chose as the movements of the checkers were so irregular.

[John]

But wouldn't the abductor have heard Gerry & Jez talking in the street? It would have been silent in the apartment.

Then when he got out of the apartment and heard voices on the road why did he decide to walk across the very road he would have heard the child's father talking on?

That makes no sense as the risk is massive to the abductor.

He'd have surely heard the talking and bailed the other way across the complex and behind the complex wall.

Also if he could get in and out so quick why would he need to get out within minutes of Gerry leaving? If they were being watched he would know the checks were being done every 20-30 minutes, he could have waited 10 minutes and then make a break for it.

It doesn't make sense that he set off whilst he heard people talking on the street and it makes no sense to walk across that very street and potentially be exposed to the child's father seeing him.

Unless of course, which makes more sense, given both Gerry and Jez are adamant they saw no one, and Jane said she walked past both men who were in fact on the other side of the road, there was no man walking across the road.

No, he wouldn't have heard them speak in the street through a closed double glazed patio door and in any event even if he had done he was not to know who it was.

When he emerged from the front door carrying Madeleine he again would not have heard the chatting Gerry and Jez or seen the approaching Jane.

The coast was clear after Gerry left the apartment thus the ideal time to make a break for it.  He or they were not to know that another member of the group was on her way up the road towards them at the very moment the carrier exited the car park.  A chance encounter which luckily for them did not result in the alarm being raised.

[AnneGuedes]

There was always going to be an inherent risk whatever time he or they chose as the movements of the checkers were so irregular.

What justified taking this risk and besides not minimizing it as it could have been ?

[AnneGuedes]

No, he wouldn't have heard them speak in the street through a closed double glazed patio door and in any event even if he had done he was not to know who it was.

I've never read they were "double glazed". Even slightly open (3cm at least), the sound goes through (experiment !).

[AnneGuedes]

he again would not have heard the chatting Gerry and Jez or seen the approaching Jane.

Do you cross streets like the carrier, John ? Never looking left and right even if you hear no car?

[Redblossom]

You're forgetting the rehearsal, the most surrealistic hypothesis in this case ! Actually no, there's as surrealistic as the rehearsal, the errant body in quest of sepulchre.

I cant imagine someone practising an abduction.....let alone several times as per Donal McIntyre
 8-)(--)

[John]

I cant imagine someone practising an abduction.....let alone several times as per Donal McIntyre
 8-)(--)

I agree, they knew their target and which apartment to monitor, they knew the general movements and they pounced when they thought the coast was clear.  They were nearly caught.

[AnneGuedes]

I agree, they knew their target and which apartment to monitor, they knew the general movements and they pounced when they thought the coast was clear.  They were nearly caught.

A thin door separating the father from the abductor, the first not hearing the beating heart of the second, not smelling his sweat.. doesn't it sound Enid Blyton?

[Redblossom]

I agree, they knew their target and which apartment to monitor, they knew the general movements and they pounced when they thought the coast was clear.  They were nearly caught.

How were they nearly caught? Jane Tanner saw a pair of feet and the bottom of pyjamas, which at the time she would have had no knowledge of (ie MMs exact ones) to raise any suspicion, plus she had just passed Gerry after his check

She could never have seen the childs face or hair from the time she first spotted the man when she half way from the gate to the top of the road, to when she was at the top of the road as he finished crossing the junction
?

And Gerry and Jez can be discounted here

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg

3 4 5 8

[AnneGuedes]

plus she had just passed Gerry after his check

The mysterious feeling she had that Mr McCann had done his check

[Redblossom]

The mysterious feeling she had that Mr McCann had done his check

Ok thats a fair point
She couldnt have known, for all she knew Gerry was en route when he stopped to have the chat with Jez