So if the abduction occurred at 9.15pm lets look at the movements.

[AnneGuedes]

Quote from: John on Today at 02:35:26 PM
It is interesting to note that had it not been for the slamming door or the waving curtains that Madeleine's disappearance might not have been detected until even much later.
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Yes, had the door not slammed Kate wouldnt have physically checked on her kids, she saw the door more open and just went to close it again, before it slammed, thats the only reason she looked in

!

Thats all in her own account

Their behaviours are very similar, like in an old couple ! Both look for Madeleine because of an open door (they don't even imagine Madeleine could have gone to the bathroom, kids don't shut doors, it's well known). Sounds a bit too much for a coincidence in that particular context.

[Redblossom]

Their behaviours are very similar, like in an old couple ! Both look for Madeleine because of an open door (they don't even imagine Madeleine could have gone to the bathroom, kids don't shut doors, it's well known). Sounds a bit too much for a coincidence in that particular context.

The tales are very convoluted. Kate Mccann speaking to the British public in her documentary Madeleine was Here, said, on her check at 10  the door was more open than we had left it, well, hang on, did she mean how they had left  it at 8.30? at 9 after Gerrys check? Or how Matt left it? Matt never  touched the wide open door,neither did he tell Kate after his 9.30 check anything about the door angle, so how could she say it was more open than she/GM had left it! If she didnt know if Matt had left it like that?
 

[Benice]

Oh but I can.   The apartment could still have been monitored and the abductor could still have found himself there at the worst possible time.  Unless he had a time machine he was not to know that Gerry McCann would carry out a proper check immediately after Matthew had listened at the shutter.  There was always going to be an inherent risk whatever time he or they chose as the movements of the checkers were so irregular.

A good point John. If they had been monitoring the McCanns and knew they checked approx ever 30mins then it's highly likely they thought that Matthew was doing the 30 min check for the McCanns - at their request. 

They would not know that Matt's check was a spontaneous one which he only decided to do when he went off to hurry the Paynes up - and decided that as he was half way to his apartment anyway  - he might as well carry on and do his own check, and while he was there he decided to check the McCann's as well.

If the abductors thought that was an arranged check they would assume that after Matt left they had 30 mins before the next check and so went in soon after Matt went back to the Tapas.   The last thing they would be expecting was that Gerry would turn up within 10 mins.

IMO it's not completely out of the question that Madeleine could have already been sedated when Gerry last saw her and the abductor was hiding  in the apartment.    Then whilst giving Gerry a couple of mins to get off the road and back into the OC  - he opened the window to check that the coast was clear at the front of the building and left via the front door with Madeleine.     

[DCI]

Anne, when did Gerry say he looked in his bedroom? For Madeleine? Icab said this the other day too.

He didn't, unless Anne can give us a link to where he say's that, its just another bit of disimformation.

[Redblossom]

He didn't, unless Anne can give us a link to where he say's that, its just another bit of disimformation.

Ok, I know he wondered about it but never seen anything to say that he actually did this, ie look, but I may have missed it

the only one I know of that wondered if Madeleine was sleeping in her parents room was Matt Oldfield and he went to look!! Instead of looking in the kids actual bloody room for her

 8-)(--)

 >@@(*&)

Any idea what that was all about?

[AnneGuedes]

Anne, when did Gerry say he looked in his bedroom? For Madeleine? Icab said this the other day too.

In fact Mr McCann doesn't, you're right, at least in his statements. He first thinks Madeleine might be in his bedroom, before entering Madeleine's bedroom.
Perhaps a confusion with Mrs McCann who does first go to her bedroom in one of her discovery reports.

[Redblossom]

In fact Mr McCann doesn't, you're right, at least in his statements. He first thinks Madeleine might be in his bedroom, before entering Madeleine's bedroom.
Perhaps a confusion with Mrs McCann who does first go to her bedroom in one of her discovery reports.

Ok, no problem Anne, I will try find her testimony on that

Eta, yes, it was Kate who said in a couple documentaries she went looking in her bedroom after not seeing Madeleine in bed

[AnneGuedes]

IMO it's not completely out of the question that Madeleine could have already been sedated when Gerry last saw her and the abductor was hiding  in the apartment.   

How ? Have you any idea ? Because this is very simple to say, much more difficult to do.

[Benice]

How ? Have you any idea ? Because this is very simple to say, much more difficult to do.

I don't know enough about sedatives to say Anne.  Except that unless it has been proved to be irrefutably impossible, then it follows that it is possible.

[DCI]

In fact Mr McCann doesn't, you're right, at least in his statements. He first thinks Madeleine might be in his bedroom, before entering Madeleine's bedroom.
Perhaps a confusion with Mrs McCann who does first go to her bedroom in one of her discovery reports.

Who's confusion? You can't use stuff, you say Gerry said, thats not in the files. Are we supposed to take your word? Dream on!

Don't neglect a little devilish detail, John, Mr McCann said he looked for Madeleine only because the door was more opened than they left it. He looked first for her in his bedroom, then seeing her in her own bed he forgot about the door.So it seems actually it wasn't Mr McCann who disturbed the abductor, but the abductor who disturbed Mr McCann, his 6th sense at least.

[AnneGuedes]

I don't know enough about sedatives to say Anne.  Except that unless it has been proved to be irrefutably impossible, then it follows that it is possible.

A sedation lasting for at least one hour requires equipment (ask a doctor!) and takes some time to administer, at least a few minutes. The carrier had no bag and no device was left behind. So sedation isn't possible at 9:15. Later you'd have to imagine an accomplice who'd take the equipment away whereas the abductor walks with Madeleine.
And we're left with the state of the twins unexplained (no reason to sedate sleeping kids).

[AnneGuedes]

unless it has been proved to be irrefutably impossible, then it follows that it is possible.

So finally you agree that a reconstruction was imperative !

[Benice]

A sedation lasting for at least one hour requires equipment (ask a doctor!) and takes some time to administer, at least a few minutes. The carrier had no bag and no device was left behind. So sedation isn't possible at 9:15. Later you'd have to imagine an accomplice who'd take the equipment away whereas the abductor walks with Madeleine.
And we're left with the state of the twins unexplained (no reason to sedate sleeping kids).

Are you an expert on sedatives Anne?

If there were two of them one could go off with Madeleine and the other go off with the 'equipment'.

As I say, I know next to nothing about sedatives  - but what about an injection?  Is that impossible?

[DCI]

Are you an expert on sedatives Anne?

If there were two of them one could go off with Madeleine and the other go off with the 'equipment'.

As I say, I know next to nothing about sedatives  - but what about an injection?  Is that impossible?

Obviously not an expert, or anything near one!

Equipment?
 
Would he have bought an entire operating theatre?
How big is a syringe, and didn't he have pockets?

[Albertini]

An abduction at around 9.15pm is the only possible scenario which fits with the known facts and indeed, evidence.

Only if those facts, which are solely derived from the witness statements of the parents and their friends (the ones whose statements contain contradictions and lies, and who stopped the investigation by refusing to recreate those facts from their statements), are true.

And that is a big assumption given in Kate McCann's own words"they had no choice but to lie".