The sad mantra about neglect

[Redblossom]

Good post, Benice.  The McCanns were guilty of human error - not neglect.

Yes you are quite right chinagirl

its normal for people to leave their babies in their houses all alone and leave  the doors unlocked, especially if its a vulnerable go all and sundry place,and go out for the evening and periodically go back and just check in case something has  happened to them, got it in one! Well done x Well said, anyone who thinks  this is not normal is abnormal

GET REAL
 

its normal for parents to protect their babies, not leave their fate to CHANCE

Get a grip!

[sadie]

Now shall I tell you why the Mccanns left their patio door unlocked but not the others. IMO

There are several reasons, but one that no-one seems to have considered.
The way that their patio door was different from the others was that theirs was lit by the street lamp immediately across the road ... and therefore visible to anyone coming up the road and from various villas.  Also visible from the tapas restaurant. 

The others apartments all came off a narrow ill lit alleyway ...a burglars delight alleyway.  Also a frightening alleyway for a woman to walk along after dark.

[sadie]

Too much work gone into this to leave it hidden away over page, so BUMPED



The time table for times that an opportunity arose between different independant witnesses seeing Madeleine, was unfortunately on another thread

I have copied it over herewith:  New amended version

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The only periods that Kate, or Kate and Gerry together, were alone with their family


NOTE:  I had mistaken the time that Gerry arrived back, so have amended this post

Please note:
I have taken all the times from one statement or another ... and I haven't handpicked the statements.  Have just used the statements as they came to hand.

David Payne and Matt Oldfield and Jane Tanner are independent witnesses.

David saw Madeleine alive and well at about 6.35/6.40pm (6.40 came from Kates words as posted today by was it faith, or was it Red?)

Kate and Gerry were at the tapas restaurant apart for a short break from 8.30 to 10 pm.  The break was when Gerry went to the apartment to check the children at about 9.05 and then met Jez


That leaves a period of 1 hour 50 minutes, maybe 2 hours, total when no-one outside the family saw Madeleine.

During that time, for about 1 1/2 hours (or maybe 1 Hour 20 minutes, if kates words are taken), both Mum and Dad were together with the children. 

Alternatively considering kate on her own with the children
Davids visit was at 6.30 / 6.40pm.  He saw all three children alive and well.   Gerry arrived soon after 7 pm [time amended]  That is a period of only half an hour to 40 minuteswhen Kate was alone with them.

During this period Kate and Gerry read to them, talked, played with them and put them to bed.  Then they showered, hair washed, blow dried etc and made up (Kate)    Also cleared away after the children and also the bathroom.  Had a quiet glass of wine. ... not a lot of time for any dirty deed really !   

Of course anything that "might have" happened, did so in full daylight, with people around either eating, sipping a drink (probably on their balconies) or getting ready ... or perhaps, walking to and from their flats.  No time and a bit cheeky, don't you think?


No other opportunities apart from in this 1 hour 50 minute, or 2 hour period, which I have just analysed for you, showing the unlikelyhood of such a thing happening as virtually Zilch, tbh.



Summary of results
THe longest periods that Kate, or Kate and Gerry together, were alone with the three little ones.

Kate on her own = about 25-35 minutes, but busy all that time - see above
Gerry was never on his own except for the fleeting visit at about 9.05- 9.10

Gerry came back for almost an hour and a half and joined Kate so,
Kate and Gerry together = 1 hour 30 minutes.  Both busy all that time apart from the glass of wine


You are grasping at straws guys, if you think anything would have happened during these 2hours, or less, and in daylight whilst people were around..


Red please NOTE   
NOT 5 hours but 2 hours or maybe only 1 hour 50 minutes

Please cut the disinformation and lies.

[Redblossom]

Now shall I tell you why the Mccanns left their patio door unlocked but not the others. IMO

There are several reasons, but one that no-one seems to have considered.
The way that their patio door was different from the others was that theirs was lit by the street lamp immediately across the road ... and therefore visible to anyone coming up the road and from various villas.  Also visible from the tapas restaurant. 

The others apartments all came off a narrow ill lit alleyway ...a burglars delight alleyway.  Also a frightening alleyway for a woman to walk along after dark.

Dear God when will  the apologists stop

[AnneGuedes]

Dear God when will  the apologists stop

Never.
Either they know they ignore facts they don't doubt though (they believe) or they're certain to have some knowledge about facts they ignore (they're convinced). In neither of these cases they lie, even when they say falsity.   

[Redblossom]

Too much work gone into this to leave it hidden away over page, so BUMPED



The time table for times that an opportunity arose between different independant witnesses seeing Madeleine, was unfortunately on another thread

I have copied it over herewith:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The only periods that Kate, or Kate and Gerry together, were alone with their family


Please note:
I have taken all the times from one statement or another ... and I haven't handpicked the statements.  Have just used the statements as they came to hand.

David Payne and Matt Oldfield and Jane Tanner are independent witnesses.

David saw Madeleine alive and well at about 6.35/6.40pm

Kate and Gerry were at the tapas restaurant apart for a short break from 8.30 to 10 pm.[/size]


That leaves a period of 1 hour 50 minutes total when no-one outside the family saw Madeleine.

During that time, for 35 minutes both Mum and Dad were together with the children.  However,  during that 35 minute period Gerry showered and changed ready for the tapas restaurant.  Do you think a dirty deed was done then?


Alternatively considering kate on her own with the children
Davids visit was at 6.35 / 6.40pm.  He saw all three children alive and well.   Gerry arrived at about 7.55.   
That is a period of only 1hour 15minuteswhen Kate was alone with them. During this period Kate read to them and put them to bed.  She also showered, made up, did her hair and changed to clear the bathroom, ready for Gerry coming back.  Not much time left, was there?

Additionally had anything happened to Madeleine, she would have screamed Gerry or fetched him immediately.  Gerry has been her rock thru all this.

Nah ... nothing happened then either.


No other opportunities apart from in this 1 hour 50 minute period which I have just analysed for you, showing the unlikelyhood of such a thing happening as Zilch, tbh.



Summary of results
THe longest periods that Kate or Kate and Gerry together were alone with the three little ones.

Kate on her own = I hour 15 minutes, but busy all that time - see above
Gerry was never on his own except for the fleeting visit at about 9.05- 9.10

Gerry came back for 35 minutes and joined Kate so,
Kate and Gerry together = 1 hour 50 minutes, but Gerry busy at that time. - see above

Times wrong so theory wrong



It has been pointed out to you endless  times LOL

And posting in colour and bold and big does NOT make your ideas and theories true LOL
 

ie stop stuffing your ideas down our throats like they are any kind of facts

Comprende?

Nice peaceful colour to calm you down LOL

[Redblossom]

Never.
Either they know they ignore facts they don't doubt though (they believe) or they're certain to have some knowledge about facts they ignore (they're convinced). In neither of these cases they lie, even when they say falsity.

Very sad for them itsalmost  like a religious CULT scary at best,  nite anne, Im away

[sadie]

Times wrong so theory wrong



It has been pointed out to you endless  times LOL

And posting in colour and bold and big does NOT make your ideas and theories true LOL
 

ie stop stuffing your ideas down our throats like they are any kind of facts

Comprende?

Nice peaceful colour to calm you down LOL

Very pretty Red

As I said before, Red,
If you think I have anything wrong, I am very happy for you to give alternative times, but they must be correctly sourced pls.

[DCI]

PJFiles, Volume XIII, pp. 3909-15

From DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL to Ricardo Paiva

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

So 3 persons present, not both Paynes and McCann's. Was it Gerry or David who arrived 10 minutes later?

Do you have the covering letter DC Mike Marshall attached to that statement re Gaspar statements?

[AnneGuedes]

DC Mike Marshall reports
1) (David Payne) declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
Mrs Payne isn't mentioned but
2) she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Whoseever husband, both men were there, according to the Payne family !
The McCanns never pretended the Paynes were with them in the flat at 19h. At that time Mr McCann said he went back home, Mr Payne said he started tennis, Mrs W said she bathed her grand daughters with the help of Mr Payne, Mrs McCann said she told a story and Mrs Payne, who said she never was in the 5A (first statement), waited for Mr Payne who arrived 10 minutes later and so had played 10 minutes tennis.
In other words, take it at face value or beat it !

[sadie]

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

So 3 persons present, not both Paynes and McCann's. Was it Gerry or David who arrived 10 minutes later?

Do you have the covering letter DC Mike Marshall attached to that statement re Gaspar statements?

I read that just DCI, but it is a third party declaration [involving translations, I think]

I got my info about David Payne direct from one of his three statements.  They are long.

I shall now re-read Fionas statement, cos i haven't done that again recently.

All the times I put on that timeline we taken from Official statements ... and i welcome any additions to the times, but I want them from the witnesses statements, NOT from the words of third parties. 

That way there is less likelyhood of error  ... and we can cut down on discrepancies.

[Benice]

Yes you are quite right chinagirl

its normal for people to leave their babies in their houses all alone and leave  the doors unlocked, especially if its a vulnerable go all and sundry place,and go out for the evening and periodically go back and just check in case something has  happened to them, got it in one! Well done x Well said, anyone who thinks  this is not normal is abnormal

GET REAL
 

its normal for parents to protect their babies, not leave their fate to CHANCE

Get a grip!

Another example of posting with the benefit of hindsight.  What about all the parents who did the same as the McCanns and nothing untoward happened as a result of it?   Why don't you criticise them?  Do you really think that parents who were on holiday in Portugal at the same time as the McCanns and who adopted the same Listening method of checking on their children didn't go home breathing huge sighs of relief and thinking - there for the Grace of God go I ..................  and who as a result of what happened to the McCann family never ever did that again.     

 Your determination to single the McCAnns out as the only parents who were ever lulled into a false sense of security and who ever made a mistake as a result of that is inexplicable to me.    They and Madeleine were the victims - the person who took advantage of their misplaced feelings of security  which had been deliberately  encouraged by the tour operators, and who as a result of that was able to abduct her is the monster here - not the parents.      Whoever that was must be jumping for joy because of people like yourself who for some reason insist on putting all the blame on the parents and exonerating the perpetrator of any blame.           

The Portuguese AG didn't agree with you and said the McCanns  had every right to believe they and their children were in a safe environment - and one which was emphasised as being 'child friendly'.      All the information the tour operators had which contradicted that claim was deliberately kept from them.  And yet the only people you want to blame are the family whose lives were ruined by some evil monster who is still walking around free to do the same thing to another unsuspecting family   Unbelievable!

[John]

Some interesting videos you posted earlier Redblossom.  The comments by so-called investigator Franciso Marco to the effect that he knows the kidnapper, where he is and how he has done it and those by Joseph Moura claiming that Jane Tanner never left the table that night are hogwash and destroy any credibility these self promoting Columbo would-be's ever had to begin with.  With claims like those one could not be blamed for questioning the motives of some of these idiots?   Cringeworthy garbage...and there was me thinking that CBS was a quality news media outlet. 

[Albertini]

I read that just DCI, but it is a third party declaration [involving translations, I think]

I got my info about David Payne direct from one of his three statements.  They are long.

I shall now re-read Fionas statement, cos i haven't done that again recently.

All the times I put on that timeline we taken from Official statements ... and i welcome any additions to the times, but I want them from the witnesses statements, NOT from the words of third parties. 

That way there is less likelyhood of error  ... and we can cut down on discrepancies.

Sadie, you appear to be cherry picking from statements.

The Tapas ladies (apart from Rachel) said in the first statements they were all in their respective apartments at just after 19:00, the men corroborated that in the second statements and then subsequently the men in their third statements (rogatory) changed it to 20:00.

All statements indicate (from memory) Gerry left before the other men.

So i don't see how it i can be accepted as a fact Gerry went to the apartment at 19:55.

[Redblossom]

Very pretty Red

As I said before, Red,
If you think I have anything wrong, I am very happy for you to give alternative times, but they must be correctly sourced pls.

Well you can begin by correctly sourcing your claim that Gerry Mccann went home from tennis at 8 pm, Ive asked this of you before, but all I got is a deafening silence.