Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?

[Brietta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c4NMYPsFKb8

Stop the video at exactly 1.08.48 & tell me what you see next to the cardboard boxes.

Is this what you mean, Misty?

Looks to me like a bag with a child's trainers alongside and clothing pulled out to allow the dogs access?

[Anna]

Is this what you mean, Misty?

Looks to me like a bag with a child's trainers alongside and clothing pulled out to allow the dogs access?

looks like the same bag on floor of 5A photographed by scenes of crime crew...
and the elusive navy bag that they boarded the plane with..............Same bag

[misty]

Please look at Brietta's post #68. The pictures show 2 entirely different cases (note the positions of the labels) and, to me, the lower picture shows a very dark navy case.
There were TWO cases taken from the villa to the gymnasium, as per page 2125 of the PJ files.
 08 Processos Vol VIII Page 2125

TRANSLATED BY INES
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2125


From: Inspector Joao Carlos


TERMS OF DELIVERY

On 3rd August 2007 in Praia da Luz, Gerlad McCann, resident in Rua das Flores 27 appeared before me Joao Carlos and Inspector Freitas according to written dispatch?and delivered the following:

1. One soft toy, made of pink coloured material, make Cuddle Cut with a wooden rosary and a green ribbon.
2. Four boxes containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags.
3. Two suitcases containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags.
4. One Bible.
5. Two diaries.
6. One note pad.
7. One pair of rubber gloves.

The present Terms of Delivery were elaborated and will be signed.

Signed

Gerald McCann

And from the above, we can deduce that there must have been at least 4 suitcases inspected by the dogs - and none produced any odour for the dogs to react to or it would have been shown to the public.

[Anna]

Pegasus, I know you are very good at working things out ,but I disagree about the case in the wardrobe. I think it I the small one with wheels and the one being carried away from 5A. See wardrobe photo, where I think that suitcase is put on the shelf sideways and shows part of the little silver motive on the top near the pocket on the front of this case. coloured motive that is on the photos of the small case in Gym. That pocket on front is also visible in the wardrobe.

[pegasus]

Pegasus, I know you are very good at working things out ,but I disagree about the case in the wardrobe. I think it I the small one with wheels and the one being carried away from 5A. See wardrobe photo, where I think that suitcase is put on the shelf sideways and shows part of the little silver motive on the top near the pocket on the front of this case. coloured motive that is on the photos of the small case in Gym. That pocket on front is also visible in the wardrobe.

I agree absolutely that the large dark bag in the apartment wardrobe on the 4th is exactly the same large dark bag which was carried away from the apartment on the 5th.
However I think it is totally different to the small wheeled case photographed 3 months later in the villa and in the gym - the handle alignment is totally different for a start, just my opinion.

[pegasus]

Any investigator would follow the possibility that a bag was used to conceal and remove the missing child from the crime scene. It's not rocket science. Recent case Mikaeel Kular (RIP) was concealed in a suitcase and removed from the crime scene and moved in the boot of the car.

The method used in that Edinburgh case was reportedly:
1. wrap in duvet cover
2. place duvet cover in suitcase
3. transport suitcase to different location
4. place suitcase under bush
5. place branches over suitcase

[pathfinder73]

The method used in that Edinburgh case was reportedly:
1. wrap in duvet cover
2. place duvet cover in suitcase
3. transport suitcase to different location
4. place suitcase under bush
5. place branches over suitcase

If a bag was used to get Madeleine away from the crime scene it didn't stay with the child because Smithman was seen carrying her. You need to identify the 2nd luggage bag first. Until that happens everything is speculation. The only way they can do that is by examining airport CCTV for the 2nd main luggage bag that was on the plane. One seen in wardrobe and 3 carry on bags. Kate's green rucksack and Gerry's red one and his black carry on one seen in airport boarding plane footage when Madeleine trips on the steps.

[Anna]

I agree absolutely that the large dark bag in the apartment wardrobe on the 4th is exactly the same large dark bag which was carried away from the apartment on the 5th.
However I think it is totally different to the small wheeled case photographed 3 months later in the villa and in the gym - the handle alignment is totally different for a start, just my opinion.

If you enlarge the photo of the case/s in the wardrobe, I think you will agree that there is two suitcases ,probably empty. One empty suitcase would not be so thick as to take up a shelf height approx. 16-18 inches, IMO. I calculated this by the high doors and ceiling and officer in a photo of the wardrobe elsewhere( your photo I think)
They left UK with 2 suitcases and arrived back with 4 black suitcases

[pathfinder73]

If you enlarge the photo of the case/s in the wardrobe, I think you will agree that there is two suitcases ,probably empty. One empty suitcase would not be so thick as to take up a shelf height approx. 16-18 inches, IMO. I calculated this by the high doors and ceiling and officer in a photo of the wardrobe elsewhere( your photo I think)
They left UK with 2 suitcases and arrived back with 4 black suitcases

One bag in wardrobe. Clothes dumped on shelf from a missing bag?

[Brietta]

The method used in that Edinburgh case was reportedly:
1. wrap in duvet cover
2. place duvet cover in suitcase
3. transport suitcase to different location
4. place suitcase under bush
5. place branches over suitcase

I don’t think that the Edinburgh tragedy has any parallels to whatever happened in Praia Da Luz; and in my opinion is an inappropriate comparison.

Subsequent information presented at his mother’s trial supports that Madeleine’s and Mikaeel’s lifestyles were wholly dissimilar; similarly there can be no comparison made between the parenting these two children received.

[pegasus]

If you enlarge the photo of the case/s in the wardrobe, I think you will agree that there is two suitcases ,probably empty. One empty suitcase would not be so thick as to take up a shelf height approx. 16-18 inches, IMO. I calculated this by the high doors and ceiling and officer in a photo of the wardrobe elsewhere( your photo I think)
They left UK with 2 suitcases and arrived back with 4 black suitcases

The dark luggage item in the wardrobe is not a traditional suitcase, nor is it a floppy holdall bag, it is a more modern piece of luggage - I would describe it as a large luggage bag which has some degree of strength in its base and sides so that it can maintain its 3D rectangular shape fairly well even when it is empty.

The height of this luggage item in the wardrobe photo matches the height of the exact same luggage item in the outdoor photo "suitcases2.jpg" (see a few posts up), where you can estimate the luggage height by comparision with the human figure height, just as you did with the wardrobe photo. This is how this luggage item left the apartment.

[sadie]

The dark luggage item in the wardrobe is not a traditional suitcase, nor is it a floppy holdall bag, it is a more modern piece of luggage - I would describe it as a large luggage bag which has some degree of strength in its base and sides so that it can maintain its 3D rectangular shape fairly well even when it is empty.

The height of this luggage item in the wardrobe photo matches the height of the exact same luggage item in the outdoor photo "suitcases2.jpg" (see a few posts up), where you can estimate the luggage height by comparision with the human figure height, just as you did with the wardrobe photo. This is how this luggage item left the apartment.

Framed suitcases for flights almost invariably come in two sizes.

1)  The carry on,
In order to hold as much as is possible, this ideally must be as big as the regulations will allow ... so carry on suitcases tend to be almost exactly the same size

2)  THe hold suitcase which usually has a weight limit of 20Kg.  Again passengers want as much clothes packing space as possible conducive with the maximum weight allowance.  Suitcase manufacturers have worked out the case size that holds the correct weight ... and once again the hold suitcases are more or less exactly the same size


There are exceptions but basically you have only two sizes of suitcases used .... and all suitcases tend to be these sizes.


There will be many of them around in these two more or less standard sizes.  Also with such crude measuring as you describe (eyeing up from limiting sources), I think that it is a rather dicey thing to think that the two suitcases are definitely the same.


They could be, but they might not be.




Personally, with the limited view, and because of these standard dimensions, I dont think that from height and width ity is possible to judge two suitcases being the same .... unless the dimensions on the subject suitcase are very unusual. 


Sorry Pegasus.

[Anna]

Photos taken on 9 April 2008.  McCanns on way to Belgium to address MEP's.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1584458/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-to-address-MEPs.html

[pegasus]

@Sadie. I think Occam would say the bag in wardrobe is the same as the carried dark bag next day.
If not, where did the first go, and where did the second come from?

[sadie]

@Sadie. I think Occam would say the bag in wardrobe is the same as the carried dark bag next day.
If not, where did the first go, and where did the second come from?

Pegasus
That might be right, but we dont actually know, do we?

We have too little information imo.


And with all the comings and goings, first Gerry back to the UK, then family members arriving, no doubt bringing stuff over to them, other bags might have arrived and be around after May 3rd


No harm in surmising, but harm if what is unsafe becomes a 'fact'.... so becomes a myth. 
I think it is important to qualify any findings that you make as being uncertain, unless you are absolutely sure.


Having said that I want you and Anna to know that I admire your dedication to digging stuff out.  Well done both of you.  It is not easy, I know that.