Author Topic: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?  (Read 212074 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2013, 12:06:46 PM »
What are you suggesting then? Unless Im having a blonde moment.
 >@@(*&)

Did you not know the scent of decomposition, from dead pigs and humans, which is what the dog was trained on, is apparently made up of hundreds of chemical components, not two or three or four, that are found commonly in living human beings in a variety of ways...if it were the case that the cadaver dog alerted to these, it would be alerting left right and centre all the time, which would  render its deployment in seeking for remnant cadaver scent in crime scenes worthless, elementary my Dear Watson...no? Plus the fact, if it did do so, it failed spectacularly to alert to bad breath, body odour, period blood, urine, clipped toenails, chucked condoms, nappy contents, even rotting pizza! Oh and coconuts, of course, not to mention rotting pork chops, (and the bizarre idea that some woman could have aborted secretly in 5a, no, actually, the bizarrest idea put forward was the pyjamas of the man who died in hospital but who lived in 5a previously), and any of the other possibilities put forward before...anywhere else aside the places and belongings of the Mccann family.

Yes, I'm aware that are numerous components in decomposition odour. And that the combinations of them depend on a number of factors.

However, I was actually replying to Anne who had stated:

Quote from: AnneGuedes on August 06, 2013, 05:38:07 PM

    Wrong !  Mr Grime stated precisely that Eddie didn't react to cadaverin, simply because the dog hadn't been trained with that synthetic molecule. If someone planted, perhaps an acte manqué of Mr McCann wishing to be caught after all, only at the morgue or in the cemetery.


I was trying to point out that cadaverine isn't necessarily a synethetic substance.

Offline Carana

Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2013, 12:11:57 PM »
What are you suggesting then? Unless Im having a blonde moment.
 >@@(*&)

Did you not know the scent of decomposition, from dead pigs and humans, which is what the dog was trained on, is apparently made up of hundreds of chemical components, not two or three or four, that are found commonly in living human beings in a variety of ways...if it were the case that the cadaver dog alerted to these, it would be alerting left right and centre all the time, which would  render its deployment in seeking for remnant cadaver scent in crime scenes worthless, elementary my Dear Watson...no? Plus the fact, if it did do so, it failed spectacularly to alert to bad breath, body odour, period blood, urine, clipped toenails, chucked condoms, nappy contents, even rotting pizza! Oh and coconuts, of course, not to mention rotting pork chops, (and the bizarre idea that some woman could have aborted secretly in 5a, no, actually, the bizarrest idea put forward was the pyjamas of the man who died in hospital but who lived in 5a previously), and any of the other possibilities put forward before...anywhere else aside the places and belongings of the Mccann family.


Well, he did react to sex clean-up tissues in Jersey and Grime found that the alert was within his training parameters. In that instance, the physical evidence was present, which allowed Grime to discount it as being relevant to the murder investigation.



Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2013, 12:16:06 PM »
Yes, I'm aware that are numerous components in decomposition odour. And that the combinations of them depend on a number of factors.

However, I was actually replying to Anne who had stated:

Quote from: AnneGuedes on August 06, 2013, 05:38:07 PM

    Wrong !  Mr Grime stated precisely that Eddie didn't react to cadaverin, simply because the dog hadn't been trained with that synthetic molecule. If someone planted, perhaps an acte manqué of Mr McCann wishing to be caught after all, only at the morgue or in the cemetery.


I was trying to point out that cadaverine isn't necessarily a synethetic substance.

Oh right thanks then. It is true synthetic substance has been called cadaverine, because thats what its  made up of, ie very little, thats why Eddie was never  interested, he was too well trained to know the real deal bless his little paws RIP

So I take it you agree that Eddie could not have been reacting  to all that fluff thathas been offered up?

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2013, 12:18:16 PM »

Well, he did react to sex clean-up tissues in Jersey and Grime found that the alert was within his training parameters. In that instance, the physical evidence was present, which allowed Grime to discount it as being relevant to the murder investigation.

so one POSSIBLE find in a range of areas, but not proven, just speculation...and NONE found anywhere else of all the other substances some claim Eddie alerts to, all nonsense of course

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2013, 12:29:58 PM »
Your cite please for:

Cadaverine being synthetic
Eddie not reacting to it becasue he was too well trained
Eddie not reacting to fluff'

All your opinion.

FACTS: Mr Grime says that Eddie reacts to various individual components of the death odor inclusding cadaverine and putrescine, and also to BLOOD and SEMEN/VAGINAL SECRETIONS- is that the 'fluff' you are taliking of.

Cite for all of them, thanks

the cite to Eddie not being  interested in synthetic death scent is in Grimes CV

oh and  i never said cadaverine was synthetic,have you lost your reading abilities whilst on hols?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 12:32:05 PM by Redblossom »

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #95 on: August 07, 2013, 12:36:31 PM »
Do you accept that Eddie alerts to dried blood from any human being whether currently alive or long time dead?

Mr Grime does!

you are long in the tooth physically,  and metaphorically on these forums, to know the answer to that, so why ask the question? blood has zilch to do with all of Eddies alerts, if any of course, seeing as neither you or anyone else can  prove whetherhewas alertingto blood or cadaver scent each and every time, thats thebottom line

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2013, 12:40:35 PM »
The cite for semen is above- Grime's testimony about the sex clean up tissue found in Jersey.

The cite for blood:

"Search Asset Profile

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. "

Vol. IX Pages 2262 to 2268

and

Processos Volume XI
Pages 2813 to 2835

Re trace elements of putrfaction:

"The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact.

The E.V.R.D. will locate cadaver, whether in the whole or parts thereof; deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition and putrefaction through to skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved.

The dog will locate human cadaver in water either from the bank side or when deployed in a boat where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.

The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations. This may be completed by the dog being deployed directly to the subject area or by scent samples being taken on sterile gauze pads and the scent check being completed by scent discrimination exercise at a suitable venue.

The dog will alert to the presence of 'dead body' scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site. This enables the use of the dog to identify the exhaust of the scent through fissures in bedrock or watercourses. A geophysical survey of the area will then reduce the size of the search area.

The dog may be used to screen clothing, vehicles or property in a suitable environment. This is completed in a scent discrimination exercise where controls may be included to increase assurity."

Same source as above.

See, that is how citing is done.

Now let's have the cites I requested above for your dodgy opinions.

pointless, we know all that, I was referring to proof this is what Grime said, according to the debunker bible


FACTS: Mr Grime says that Eddie reacts to various individual components of the death odor inclusding cadaverine and putrescine, and also to BLOOD and SEMEN/VAGINAL SECRETIONS- is that the 'fluff' you are taliking of.


please prove he said anythng of the sort, ta, excluding the blood and semen part of course

And then you are free to meditate on if eddie can react to all sorts of living humans smells he failed to do so on so many occasions

Offline Carana

Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2013, 12:48:10 PM »
you are long in the tooth physically,  and metaphorically on these forums, to know the answer to that, so why ask the question? blood has zilch to do with all of Eddies alerts, if any of course, seeing as neither you or anyone else can  prove whetherhewas alertingto blood or cadaver scent each and every time, thats thebottom line

Well, that's the point of needing forensic corroboration via physical evidence...

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2013, 01:02:05 PM »
Can you not read. He states that

"The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact."

I have never said that Eddie reacts to any living human scent.

Eddie reacts to Blood, various parts of the products of human (and pig) putresence, and certain human bodily fluids.

Mr Grime is on record with all of this.

You never quoted that before  so bit disingenuous for you to say I cant read, moving on, it does not prove  that eddie alerts to to any single chemical does it, but rather a collection

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2013, 01:03:29 PM »
Well, that's the point of needing forensic corroboration via physical evidence...

There is no forensic corroboration for dead bodyscent carana, if the blood dog finds blood, its more intelligence

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #100 on: August 07, 2013, 01:04:12 PM »
Also discovered from that report that Eddie will react to crematorium Ashes.

Thats because he is a clever dog

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2013, 01:06:55 PM »
Regarding Sex clean up tissues in Jersey:

OPERATION RECTANGLE SUMMARY REPORT JULY 22 2008

The EVRD was deployed in a wide area screening sweep of the site. The following alert indications were forthcoming:

VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.


http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html


So? does this prove Eddie alerted to this in 5a? In four places and then again in 5 other places? Outwith? Related to the Mccann family? And nowhere else? What are the odds?

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2013, 01:11:48 PM »
But no information about whether Cadaver odor was there can be made without counter alert failures from a blood dog.

If that is not present, no facts about cadaver odor have been added to the evidence.

Well yes exactly,keela is not deployed to confirm cadaver scent but to add intelligence ie via blood alerts, sometimes these are  not forthcoming, death can occur without blood being spilt, likewise it may be a corroboration of blood found by a cadaver dog,  its all dog handling abilities have at the moment,  and I wouldnt be calling her doing her job correctly a failure either DB!!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 01:15:56 PM by Redblossom »

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2013, 01:19:24 PM »
Please cite exactly where Eddie alerted and Keela did not- the requirement for possible presence of evidence of putrefaction odors.

Parents bedroom
Verandah outside parents bedroom
Flower bed below parents bedroom, weak signal
Katemccanns trousers
Kate mccanns blouse
Childs t shirt
Cuddlecat....questioned by some

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Could the cadaver scent have been planted?
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2013, 01:21:32 PM »
You still do not understand the logic and science of the situation.

Suppose Eddie was a bomb detector dog. He alerts to Bombs but also to marshmallows.

At this stage we still only suspect that a Bomb or a Marshmallow has been there

Eddie smells the area

If he alerts it means either a bomb or a marshmallow is likely to have been present (he is not 100% accurate)

At this stage we suspect the presence of a bomb or a marshmallow.

Keela only reacts to Marshmallows

She smells the area

If she alerts we still only know only what we knew at the beginning- a bomb or marshmallow may have been there.

HOWEVER if Keela fails to alert, we have a strong reason to believe that Eddie reacted to a bomb

THE ONLY WAY WE GET NEW INFORMATION IS EDDIE POSITIVE, KEELA NEGATIVE.


LOL which is exaxtly what happened, eddie yes,  keela no, ergo not blood, sheesh