Why did Amaral and PJ suspect the McCanns and Murat as being somehow involved?

[faithlilly]

I dont wish to point the finger at anyone Angelo, but kitchen staff, waiters, nannies, anyone who called in could have done that.

If you are insinuating the Mccanns did it, then why would they do it in a public place?  So easy to do it away from anyone

I think you are in the catering line aren't you, Angelo?   If so, you would know the bustle, with everyone rushing around when meals are being prepared and served.

So when were the twins sedated ? At dinner, although there is no indications that they were overly tired too, or during the abduction when it would have been an unnecessary, time consuming exercise ?

[sadie]

So when were the twins sedated ? At dinner, although there is no indications that they were overly tired too, or during the abduction when it would have been an unnecessary, time consuming exercise ?

I have already said what I think ... and it is only my thoughts.  I think they were all sedated / drugged at tea time, but that the twins had a very low dose and Madeleine had a bigger dose.

Only my thoughts ... and I dont doubt that you will put forward ideas that condemn the Mccanns, cos that seems to be your main purpose in life.

[faithlilly]

I have already said what I think ... and it is only my thoughts.  I think they were all sedated / drugged at tea time, but that the twins had a very low dose and Madeleine had a bigger dose.

Only my thoughts ... and I dont doubt that you will put forward ideas that condemn the Mccanns, cos that seems to be your main purpose in life.

So what if either Madeleine or her siblings hadn't eaten all of their meal and Gerry had polished it off or had said they didn't want any food ?  With the abduction so well structured how would that have impacted on the abductor's plans ?

[sadie]

So what if either Madeleine or her siblings hadn't eaten all of their meal and Gerry had polished it off or had said they didn't want any food ?  With the abduction so well structured how would that have impacted on the abductor's plans ?

Not impossible Faith, but I think it would have been in something like a cup of hot chocolate.  what kid leaves any of that?

Had they left stuff and Gerry finished it off, as a well built fit man the remnants of three toddlers meals are unlikely to have affected him

[faithlilly]

Not impossible Faith, but I think it would have been in something like a cup of hot chocolate.  what kid leaves any of that?

Had they left stuff and Gerry finished it off, as a well built fit man the remnants of three toddlers meals are unlikely to have affected him

Hot chocolate ? Is there any reason to believe the children were given hot chocolate at their tea-time meal ? Isn't that more a bedtime drink. Kate describes Madeleine being pale and tired when she returned from her run which seems to be just as the children had started their meal. Would the McCanns really have allowed their children hot chocolate, even if it was available, before they had had a proper, nutritious meal ?

[sadie]

Hot chocolate ? Is there any reason to believe the children were given hot chocolate at their tea-time meal ? Isn't that more a bedtime drink. Kate describes Madeleine being pale and tired when she returned from her run which seems to be just as the children had started their meal. Would the McCanns really have allowed their children hot chocolate, even if it was available, before they had had a proper, nutritious meal ?

IIRC Kate came back when the meal was well underway.  About 5.20 - 5.25 come to mind, but that is from memory and I am happy to be corrected if I have remembered it wrongly.

Who says that they had the chocolate (or whatever, I only suggested chocolate ... could have been a milk shake or a fruit juice or even an icecream) before their meal?   It would have been in something that was well flavoured to mask any odd tastes and something they really liked ... even a sweetie, or a cake in the shape of a teddy bear or bunny.. 

But a drink seems the most likely, with or at the end of the meal..

[AnneGuedes]

Hot chocolate ? Is there any reason to believe the children were given hot chocolate at their tea-time meal ? Isn't that more a bedtime drink. Kate describes Madeleine being pale and tired when she returned from her run which seems to be just as the children had started their meal. Would the McCanns really have allowed their children hot chocolate, even if it was available, before they had had a proper, nutritious meal ?

I think they had this "tea meal" at 17h, Faithlilly. Actually Mrs McCanns says they left shortly after she came back from her jogging.
What always amazed me (may be for cultural reasons because in France children don't eat/drink at such short intervals) is that the kids were given milk and biscuits about 2 hours after their "tea meal".

[DCI]

I think they had this "tea meal" at 17h, Faithlilly. Actually Mrs McCanns says they left shortly after she came back from her jogging.
What always amazed me (may be for cultural reasons because in France children don't eat/drink at such short intervals) is that the kids were given milk and biscuits about 2 hours after their "tea meal".

We must differ, Anne. My granchildren have their tea between 5.30 and 6pm, milk and biscuits around 7pm, bed 7.30pm.

[faithlilly]

I think they had this "tea meal" at 17h, Faithlilly. Actually Mrs McCanns says they left shortly after she came back from her jogging.
What always amazed me (may be for cultural reasons because in France children don't eat/drink at such short intervals) is that the kids were given milk and biscuits about 2 hours after their "tea meal".

Thank you for the correction Anne. However the point stands that it would have been difficult for any abductor or accomplice to be sure they would be able to sedate the children in the right dosage at that time. What if the McCanns had agreed to go with their friends to the Paraiso, that would certainly have scuppered any plans.

As to Kate jogging, it seems, strangely, Gerry doesn't remember her doing so. From his 10th May statement :

----- The deponent and KATE returned to the OCEAN CLUB by the short-cut and at the secondary reception they asked the lady employee if there was a vacant tennis court they could reserve. They were told there was a vacancy between 14H30 to 15H30. As it was already 15h00, they began to play immediately. At 15H30, the tennis instructor arrived, who instructed each of them until 16H30.
----- The stayed in that place, talking, until 16H45 at which time the twins went to the meal area. At 17h00, as usual, MADELEINE arrived accompanied by the teachers and the other children. After her arrival, MADELEINE ate, [the meal] having ended at 17H30.

[AnneGuedes]

The sedation with the tea seems highly implausible for all those reasons that also crucially leave unexplained the who ? and the what ?
I personally don't know any drug that will act about 2 hours after being administrated. There are drugs to induce sleep, they are (in France at least) prohibited for persons under 55 years, except for very exceptional cases like blind people, but those drugs don't deepen sleep at all.

[sadie]

Thank you for the correction Anne. However the point stands that it would have been difficult for any abductor or accomplice to be sure they would be able to sedate the children in the right dosage at that time. What if the McCanns had agreed to go with their friends to the Paraiso, that would certainly have scuppered any plans.

As to Kate jogging, it seems, strangely, Gerry doesn't remember her doing so. From his 10th May statement :

----- The deponent and KATE returned to the OCEAN CLUB by the short-cut and at the secondary reception they asked the lady employee if there was a vacant tennis court they could reserve. They were told there was a vacancy between 14H30 to 15H30. As it was already 15h00, they began to play immediately. At 15H30, the tennis instructor arrived, who instructed each of them until 16H30.
----- The stayed in that place, talking, until 16H45 at which time the twins went to the meal area. At 17h00, as usual, MADELEINE arrived accompanied by the teachers and the other children. After her arrival, MADELEINE ate, [the meal] having ended at 17H30.

Well Gerry was playing tennis wasn't he, so how would he know unless kate came to specifically tell him? Kate knew that Gerry was on the spot for the children.  No reason why she shouldn't suddenly decide to go for a jog.

Do you think she should have asked permission?

[Sherlock Holmes]

I dont wish to point the finger at anyone Angelo, but kitchen staff, waiters, nannies, anyone who called in could have done that.

If you are insinuating the Mccanns did it, then why would they do it in a public place?  So easy to do it away from anyone

I think you are in the catering line aren't you, Angelo?   If so, you would know the bustle, with everyone rushing around when meals are being prepared and served.

If Madeleine was already extremely tired at 5.35, this would obviate the need for her parents to give here a sleeping drug.

It does not make sense that they would have been the ones to give her a drug at 5.00 - this would probably have the result of sending her to sleep far earlier than 7.30, and there is nothing to suggest that they wanted their children to go to bed unusually early that night.

It would tally that if Madeleine had been drugged around 5, she would indeed have been very drowsy by 5.35.
So theoretically someone at the complex could have drugged her.

This inside job is getting more complicated though, isn't it Sadie? The accomplice, or one of them, just so happens to have a job which enables him/her to serve the McCann children food.

Another question I have is that if a drug was administered at 5, there would be no guarantee that it would still be in effect several hours later. The abductor happened to have got his chance at 9.15, but he probably wasn't to have known, until then, that the wait for the coast to be clear might have been much longer.

[stephen25000]

Hypothetically, purely hypothetically of course, what if both of the parents had administered a sleeping drug to Madeleine ?

It is known that her parents had 'communication' problems and had slept in separate bedrooms I believe, the night before.

[ferryman]

It is known that her parents had 'communication' problems

No it's not.

They'd had a disagreement.

That came to light because Kate volunteered the information.

Married couples (including happily married couples) do disagree from time to time.

[stephen25000]

It is known that her parents had 'communication' problems

No it's not.

They'd had a disagreement.

That came to light because Kate volunteered the information.

Married couples (including happily married couples) do disagree from time to time.

Pray tell what the communication problem/disagreement was  ?

Was it 'something' vaguely Eastern European ?