Author Topic: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.  (Read 40439 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2013, 10:04:04 AM »
How was Kate being asked whether they were considering having Madeleine adopted supposed to help solve the mystery of what happened to her?

Why refer to just one question ?

Why not list ALL the questions ?

Offline south of the river

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2013, 10:10:06 AM »
Kate had already been interviewed for hours by the PJ  and answered loads of these questions -

When the questions became increasingly loaded and it was obvious that they were designed to force some sort of confession as well as the PJ muddying the water by lying about evidence found then her lawyer quite rightly stepped in said enough - they were well aware the way things were headed, It was their job to protect their client an

she was vulnerable , her daughter was missing , the atmosphere with press hounding , people booing was becoming hostile .


ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2013, 10:18:29 AM »
Kate had already been interviewed for hours by the PJ  and answered loads of these questions -

When the questions became increasingly loaded and it was obvious that they were designed to force some sort of confession as well as the PJ muddying the water by lying about evidence found then her lawyer quite rightly stepped in said enough - they were well aware the way things were headed, It was their job to protect their client an

she was vulnerable , her daughter was missing , the atmosphere with press hounding , people booing was becoming hostile .

Very good point, and one frequently overlooked.

If we had the full list of questions Kate was asked before she was officially declared arguido, we might well find she (sic) "failed" to answer far fewer questions than widely supposed.

And I would vehemently dispute that the word "failed" is the best one in context ...

Offline Carana

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2013, 10:47:14 AM »
I think you are quite correct in this, Stephen.  It is evident that the PJ, or at least sme members of the PJ, did believe that the McCanns had a case to answer.  And this is not unusual.  Hence the investigations, the tests etc.  But the forensic tests failed to provide evidence.   And therefore that line of enquiry failed. 

What is unusual is that the McCanns then remained arguidos for so long, )and indeed had Amaral delayed a few days he would not havebeen been able to constitute them as arguidos anyway) and that he went on to write a book about it.


If I've understood the situation correctly, there was an extension due to the rogs.

On the arguido interviews, the McCanns had already announced that they were going back to the UK (they had already prolonged the rental of the villa, presumably due to impending questioning).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_2954.jpg

The fact that the interviews took place a week before the changes in the law was ultimately unfortunate.

What isn't clear is whether the PJ genuinely believed that they had strong evidence (and were worried that if they left as witnesses, it might have been more difficult to get them to come back to be made arguidos), or if they were aware that there was nothing aside from the uncorroborated dog alerts and decided it was theire last chance to try to bluff a confession out of them.

A few things that I haven't understood:

- whether the lawyer was told about the DNA "results" (or whether he'd just been shown the videos). If he had been told, did he ask to see them? If not, why not?

- did the lawyer point out the implications of the changes in the law to the McCanns? I haven't read anything to that effect. Wouldn't it have been wise to get them to stay that extra week?
 
I looked into this not that long ago. Link here:


Edited as the formatting had gone wrong.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 02:46:15 PM by Carana »

Offline Angelo222

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2013, 03:42:30 PM »
Gerry did answer the questions,  Kate as you well know decided not to.

Well I would think lawyers would know when to advise their clients not to answer questions Stephen.   The lawyer obviously thought it was best that they didn't.

That in itself raises an interesting point.   The McCann lawyer didn't know whether they were guilty or innocent so was he counselling on the basis of the former ie one size fits all??
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 03:49:52 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Mr Moderator

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2013, 03:59:31 PM »
That in itself raises an interesting point.   The McCann lawyer didn't know whether they were guilty or innocent so was he counselling on the basis of the former ie one size fits all??

In cases of police entrapment best to say nothing.

Offline sadie

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2013, 04:05:34 PM »
In cases of police entrapment best to say nothing.
Exactly !!!

Very astute answer Mr Moderator  8((()*/

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2013, 04:19:39 PM »
In cases of police entrapment best to say nothing.
Police entrapment ? But wasn't the investigation aimed to find Madeleine MC and what happened to her ?

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2013, 04:29:24 PM »
In cases of police entrapment best to say nothing.

As she was advised Mr Moderator, she took that advice, from a professional Portuguese lawyer, as was her rights.
I'm sure Pinto de Abreu, knew full well, what was going on.
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline faithlilly

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2013, 04:31:37 PM »
As she was advised Mr Moderator, she took that advice, from a professional Portuguese lawyer, as was her rights.
I'm sure Pinto de Abreu, knew full well, what was going on.


Didn't Pinto de Abreu advise Kate to take the 'deal' she was offered, allegedly, by the PJ ? She didn't find it hard to ignore her lawyers advice then, did she ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Lace

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2013, 04:36:12 PM »

Didn't Pinto de Abreu advise Kate to take the 'deal' she was offered, allegedly, by the PJ ? She didn't find it hard to ignore her lawyers advice then, did she ?

Kate asked him what he would do in her situation and he said he would take the deal.

Kate refused to admit to something she hadn't done,  he advised her not to answer the questions.

So what does that tell you?

Offline faithlilly

Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2013, 04:40:22 PM »
Kate asked him what he would do in her situation and he said he would take the deal.

Kate refused to admit to something she hadn't done,  he advised her not to answer the questions.

So what does that tell you?

So Kate refused take his qualified advice, Thank you Lace.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 04:50:29 PM »
Kate asked him what he would do in her situation and he said he would take the deal.

Kate refused to admit to something she hadn't done,  he advised her not to answer the questions.

So what does that tell you?

Is this the mystery deal mentioned by Aunty Pil, which isn't allowed in Portuguese law ???

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 04:53:32 PM »
As she was advised Mr Moderator, she took that advice, from a professional Portuguese lawyer, as was her rights.
I'm sure Pinto de Abreu, knew full well, what was going on.
Did he ?
My confidence in Carlos was evaporating almost as quickly as my faith in Portuguese justice. I couldn’t tell if he believed us, which, given that his job was to defend us, was a major worry, to put it mildly. Even if he did, I was no longer sure he had the backbone to stand up for us.

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2013, 06:15:36 PM »
Did he ?
My confidence in Carlos was evaporating almost as quickly as my faith in Portuguese justice. I couldn’t tell if he believed us, which, given that his job was to defend us, was a major worry, to put it mildly. Even if he did, I was no longer sure he had the backbone to stand up for us.

Cleverly picked out, Anne.

BUT

It was actually quite different to how you posted it.

Then came the best bit. Carlos announced what the police had proposed. If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being charged with homicide.
Pardon? I really wasn’t sure if I could possibly have heard him correctly. My incredulity turned to rage. How dare they suggest I lie? How dare they expect me to live with such a charge against my name? And even more importantly, did they really expect me to confess to a crime they had made up, to falsely claim to the whole world that my daughter was dead, when the result would be that the whole world stopped looking for her? This police tactic might have worked successfully in the past but it certainly wasn’t going to work with me. Over my dead body. ‘You need to think about it,’ Carlos insisted. ‘It would only be one of you. Gerry could go back to work.’
I was speechless.
The incentive to accept this ‘offer’ seemed to be that if we didn’t agree to it, the authorities could or would go after us for murder, and if we were found guilty, we might both receive life sentences. Was this what it came down to? Confess to this lesser charge or risk something much worse?
Gerry was distraught now. He was on his knees, sobbing, his head hung low. ‘We’re finished. Our life is over,’ he kept saying over and over again. The realization that we were at the mercy of an incomprehensible criminal justice system had hit him hard. It was excruciating to see him like this. I love him so much and he is usually so strong. I was very conscious that my response was different. Maybe I should have been on my knees, too. Why wasn’t I crying? Was my behaviour making me look cold or guilty? Again, my only explanation is that it was beyond comprehension. I might as well have been a character in a soap opera. Any time now the director would call ‘Cut!’ and this scene would be over. Even today, I struggle to believe it actually took place.

There was a phrase Carlos must have used about twenty times: ‘This is the point of no return.’ I could feel myself shaking. He was a man with three daughters of his own. ‘Do you want me to lie? What would you do, Carlos? If one of your daughters was missing, and this happened to you, what would you do? Would you confess to a crime you hadn’t committed, knowing full well it would mean everyone would stop searching for her?’
‘I’d consider it, yes.’

Heaven help us. My confidence in Carlos was evaporating almost as quickly as my faith in Portuguese justice. I couldn’t tell if he believed us, which, given that his job was to defend us, was a major worry, to put it mildly. Even if he did, I was no longer sure he had the backbone to stand up for us.


It was one thing to make us aware of the PJ’s proposal, and perhaps Carlos was duty bound to do that; it was quite another, however, to suggest we accept it. I was horrified, and told him so in no uncertain terms.
My anger and ferocious maternal instinct began to permeate Gerry’s despair. He was regaining his composure, his powers of reason and his fighting spirit.
‘They’ve got nothing!’ he fired at Carlos. He began pointing out the many flaws in the PJ’s ‘evidence’ and the complete absence of any logic. ‘This should be your job, not ours!’ he said. He asked Carlos whether he felt he was up to the job. Carlos thought so. Did he need assistance? Not at the moment, but he would if the case came to trial.
Trisha and Eileen, disturbed by the noise, appeared from their room. Keeping a lid on my anger for long enough to enable me to communicate clearly, I brought them up to speed. Within seconds there were three raging lionesses pacing the villa.
Recognizing the need to switch into crisis-management mode, we calmed each other down. Gerry and I made it very clear to Trisha and Eileen that if we didn’t return from the police station the next day, they should take the children out of the country as soon as possible.
It must have been close to 4am when Carlos and Sofia left, saying they would see me at the police station later that morning. On her way out, Sofia came over and gave me a hug. She told me she believed in us, that she was ‘with’ us, and tried to allay my concerns about Carlos. I should trust him, she said. He was ‘very good’. It was a relief to know that somebody in Portugal was on our side.

Gerry and I just looked at each other, not knowing quite what to do or what was to become of us. We’d experienced many periods of despair since our beloved daughter had been taken away, but this one would take some beating. Our lives, our family, our whole future hung in the balance. We couldn’t just go to bed. We had to do something. Despite the time, Gerry rang Bob Small and, in a voice laced with panic, explained what was going on. Bob was shocked. He wasn’t aware of any forensic results, he told us, and certainly none suggesting what had just been shared with us. He tried his best to reassure Gerry. ‘Just tell them the truth. It’ll be OK,’ he insisted. Perhaps he was trying to convince himself.
It was almost 5am when we finally got to bed. Extra prayers tonight.
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/