The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.

[AnneGuedes]

Why do you question Anna Esse's translation?

Don't you think it is normal to question the translation in this kind of text ? Translating the files was an enormous and often fastidious work. There was a lot of pressure because everybody was curious of what was in the files. If you read well you'll see that frequently translations are reviewed by the translator him/herself.
Sometimes I wonder whether replying to your posts isn't a waste of time, Ferryman : I've a feeling you don't read..

[ferryman]

Don't you think it is normal to question the translation in this kind of text ? Translating the files was an enormous and often fastidious work. There was a lot of pressure because everybody was curious of what was in the files. If you read well you'll see that frequently translations are reviewed by the translator him/herself.
Sometimes I wonder whether replying to your posts isn't a waste of time, Ferryman : I've a feeling you don't read..

My question is: what is your basis for questioning it?

Are you simply questioning it because you choose to disbelieve it?

Or do you have some, solid reason in logic or fact for supposing it has been inaccurately translated?

[Carana]

km was 'advised' not to answer questions, simply on the grounds she might contradict her husbands account.

Otherwise, why not simply tell the truth ?

Could you provide a reliable source to substantiate that?

[Carana]

Interesting.

I think I've got to the bottom of that "translation".

- Ferryman believed he was quoting from the files as - indeed - it appears in the "PJ" folder. However, it seems to be a summarised translation of various dog-related documents.

- The closest I can find in Portuguese is the request from João Carlos to extend the dog searches and to tap the McCanns.


 08 Processo 8 Pages 2068 to 2070
08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2068
08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2069
08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2070

Processo pages 2068 and 2069

A note for the case file dated 1 August 2007 with respect to the dog search reports from 31 July and 1 August requesting the authorisation necessary to search the then-residence of the McCann family and the hire vehicle.

Faced with the new matters brought to the file through the dog search reports above, [those searches being] based on Mark Harrison's report already on file, and which [search results] support that Madeleine McCann may have died inside apartment 5A, Ocean Club, Luz, Lagos, where she was on holiday with her parents and two siblings.

The above reports state that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour and human blood inside the apartment, it already having been established that no death has occurred there previously.

In point a) [apartment 5A] of the report we can infer the locations of cadaver odour as well as the presence of traces of human blood. Also at point f) we see that cadaver odour was detected in the garden immediately adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was signalled in the other places.

In order to allow us to thoroughly examine this situation, which could have its conclusion through new evidence, it is requested for a voice record, legally sanctioned, specifically of two locations:
1 - Rua das Flores, no 27, Vivenda Vista do Mar, Luz Park, Luz, Lagos (the present residence of the McCann family in Luz)
2 - Hired vehicle used by the McCanns, the "Renault Scenic", number plate 59-DA-27.

Further, and of no small importance, it is also requested that a magistrate issue search warrants for [the above two locations] to enable us to recover new items/clues.

I ask that you consider the above and decide at your convenience.

Portimao, 1 August 2007
Inspector
Joao Carlos
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm#p8p2068to2070

However, that statement about "murder" doesn't appear in his memo.





The "murder" statement seems to refer to Article 131° of the Penal Code. From the 2007 version, the introductory Article covering that section, with an over-arching definition is:

TÍTULO I
Dos crimes contra as pessoas CAPÍTULO I
Dos crimes contra a vida Artigo 131.o Homicídio
Quem matar outra pessoa é punido com pena de prisão de 8 a 16 anos.

Homicide: "whomsoever kills another person... "

Subsequent articles define and set out legal sanctions for various categories of homicide, e.g. Artigo 132.o
Homicídio qualificado, Artigo 133.o Homicídio privilegiado, Artigo 134.o Homicídio a pedido da vítima, etc. It covers everything from murder to promotional propaganda of suicide.

AnnaEsse has mistranslated homicide as murder.

It is not an official part of the files. It may have been uploaded before that section of the files had been translated directly into English and was never taken down.


ETA: In view of the context of the memo from João Carlos, and the fact that the translation doesn't include his name, I'm wondering if it was a draft that was translated. Mentioning the Article on homicide would have been understandable in terms of justifying the request (particularly phone tapping), then for some reason it was deemed unnecessary and taken out.

[AnneGuedes]

Yes. A poster found the French translation from which Anna Esse translated and there's no "murder" in it, but "homicide" in relation to the article 131 which defines it generically in terms of sanction (logically as it is part of the Penal Code).
The only left mystery is why this translation is in the PJ Files.

[Carana]

In checking various translations of the term "factos imputados", I stumbled upon something that I found perplexing until the penny dropped.

Depending on the context, I found (unsurprisingly) that "factos imputados" can mean "alleged facts", "the facts complained of"... and "charges".

Looking more closely at where the term was used to mean "charges" (clearly in a criminal context), I found that "arguido" had been translated as "defendant".

I then realised that the meaning of "arguido" itself depended on context: from "person of interest" to "defendant" as the status remains all the way through to conviction or aquittal if a case is taken to court.

I then decided to have a look at the document that the Madeleine arguidos had signed.

"Constituição de arguido" was - in my opinion - mistranslated as "Being held as a defendant", which gives a somewhat different impression to an English speaker. I presume that whoever translated it had found the terms used in the context of a trial setting.

Just taking Gerry's as an example.

[DCI]

AnnaEsse has mistranslated homicide as murder.

No Carana, Anna Esse has not mistranslated homicide as murder, but she's added a page to the files, that does not exist, on the DVD's. Note no page number or Processos Vol , on her translation. The pic she used is not from the official files.

[Carana]

No Carana, Anna Esse has not mistranslated homicide as murder, but she's added a page to the files, that does not exist, on the DVD's. Note no page number or Processos Vol , on her translation. The pic she used is not from the official files.

I'm not sure I'm following you. I agree that that summary / translation isn't part of the files, but AnnaEsse translated it and uploaded it and possibly simply forgot that it's still there. However, in translating it, she translated homicide as murder, which isn't the correct meaning in Article 131.

[AnneGuedes]

In checking various translations of the term "factos imputados", I stumbled upon something that I found perplexing until the penny dropped.

Depending on the context, I found (unsurprisingly) that "factos imputados" can mean "alleged facts", "the facts complained of"... and "charges".

Looking more closely at where the term was used to mean "charges" (clearly in a criminal context), I found that "arguido" had been translated as "defendant".

I then realised that the meaning of "arguido" itself depended on context: from "person of interest" to "defendant" as the status remains all the way through to conviction or aquittal if a case is taken to court.

I then decided to have a look at the document that the Madeleine arguidos had signed.

"Constituição de arguido" was - in my opinion - mistranslated as "Being held as a defendant", which gives a somewhat different impression to an English speaker. I presume that whoever translated it had found the terms used in the context of a trial setting.

Just taking Gerry's as an example.

"defendant" could be a good translation for arguido in the inquiry which can follow the investigation because then the defendant has to be an active part in the process.

[Carana]

"defendant" could be a good translation for arguido in the inquiry which can follow the investigation because then the defendant has to be an active part in the process.

In a criminal trial, a defendant is any person accused (charged) of committing an offence (a crime), an act defined as punishable under criminal law. The other party to a criminal trial is usually a public prosecutor.


(...)

Defendants in civil actions usually make their first court appearance voluntarily in response to a summons. But criminal defendants are often taken into custody by police and brought before a court under an arrest warrant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendant

The McCanns weren't arrested, weren't held in custody and weren't charged with any crime.

[AnneGuedes]

They didn't request an inquiry. Had they requested and had it been granted, they would have had in it the arguido status. The implications of that status in the inquiry are a bit different, especially concerning the contradictory debate, essential in the process. They could have required all diligences necessary to defend their point of view, which has the virtue, unlike some statements, to have never changed: Madeleine was abducted from bed.
A reconstruction would have been a good idea ;)

[Carana]

They didn't request an inquiry. Had they requested and had it been granted, they would have had in it the arguido status. The implications of that status in the inquiry are a bit different, especially concerning the contradictory debate, essential in the process. They could have required all diligences necessary to defend their point of view, which has the virtue, unlike some statements, to have never changed: Madeleine was abducted from bed.
A reconstruction would have been a good idea ;)

But my point was the translation on the arguido form they had to sign back in September 07. Any instruction debate would have taken place after the case had been shelved (or they had been charged) in any case.

[Jean-Pierre]

Anne, you really do talk some rubbish at times.  Arguido is more akin (the closest parallel) to "interviewed under caution" under UK law.  It is emphatically not a parallel to "defendant" - which as Carana has pointed out, is quite different.

.... removed comment .....

[AnneGuedes]

But my point was the translation on the arguido form they had to sign back in September 07. Any instruction debate would have taken place after the case had been shelved (or they had been charged) in any case.

But my point was the translation for arguido in the inquiry, a part of the process that wasn't requested, just because the prerogatives of the arguido in the inquiry are different from his part in the investigation. That's all !
Could you please indicate where you found "arguido" translated "defendant" in the files ? It would certainly be kind and useful to indicate the mistakes that exist in the translations in order to correct them.

In checking various translations of the term "factos imputados", I stumbled upon something that I found perplexing until the penny dropped.
Depending on the context, I found (unsurprisingly) that "factos imputados" can mean "alleged facts", "the facts complained of"... and "charges".
Looking more closely at where the term was used to mean "charges" (clearly in a criminal context), I found that "arguido" had been translated as "defendant".
I then realised that the meaning of "arguido" itself depended on context: from "person of interest" to "defendant" as the status remains all the way through to conviction or aquittal if a case is taken to court.
I then decided to have a look at the document that the Madeleine arguidos had signed.
"Constituição de arguido" was - in my opinion - mistranslated as "Being held as a defendant", which gives a somewhat different impression to an English speaker. I presume that whoever translated it had found the terms used in the context of a trial setting.
Just taking Gerry's as an example.

[Carana]

And what would appear to be yet another mistranslation of arguido as "offender" might explain Russell's horrified reaction regarding the reconstruction:

Furthermore, we think it is hard to imagine a productive return to Portugal whilst Kate and Gerry remain arguidos. Secondly, the Prosecutor astonishingly referring to them as 'offenders' in their letter implies they are already considered to be guilty, and will be treated as such by the police and press. Furthermore the leaking of the date even before your email completely contradicts the letter's pretence to secrecy for the re-enactment.

Translating arguido as defendant prior to any arrest or charge was bad enough, but "offender" really takes the biscuit...