Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?

[Benice]

I'm not sure if you mean Anne's original post, or my response. But, although I have huge misgivings about the McCanns, especially Gerry, I struggle when people make light of a situation that is every parents' worst nightmare. No wonder that you all feel so strongly. I understand where Stephen is coming from....basically, whatever happened to Madeleine is ultimately due to her parents. I'm sure that they weren't responsible for her death, but they WERE responsible for her loss. I also struggle with the fact that they seem to jump on the media bandwagon at every opportunity. Personally, I don't think that I would cope with the loss of a child as they did. And it breaks my heart that Kerry Needham never had the help, and high profile attention that the McCanns seem to milk at every opportunity. This is how I feel, nothing will change my mind, this is where I'm at. I'm sure they wouldn't have left their cash and jewellery on a bed for anyone to steal. And yes, I know that is not an original thought.

It's hardly the McCanns fault that Kerry Needham's Ben didn't have the  same attention as Madeleine.

IMO If the internet had been as prolific back then as it has been since Madeleine was abducted, Kerry would have received exactly the same treatment as the McCanns and the [ censored word ]s and the downright nasty would have been making the same accusations about Ben's family as they do about Madeleline's.

After all Ben was left to wander around outside unsupervised.   There was no evidence of an abduction and we only have the grandparents word for what happened, how long he was left on his own and that he was abducted.   The 'sceptics' would have had a field day IMO. 

After more than 20 years Kerry still hopes to be reunited with her son and is still looking for him.  She is applauded for that.   The McCanns have the same hope and after 6 years are also still searching for their daughter - but for some bizarre reason they are reviled and criticised for doing exactly the same. .

I believe both Ben and Madeleine were abducted and that the abductor is the criminal.   Neither families deliberately put those children at risk  - any more than Jamie Bulger's mother, or April Jones, or Sarah Paynes families did - and yet only the McCanns have been singled out as being wholly responsible for what happened to their child - and never the evil monster who abducted her.      I find that totally incomprehensible.

 












 

[stephen25000]

It's hardly the McCanns fault that Kerry Needham's Ben didn't have the  same attention as Madeleine.

IMO If the internet had been as prolific back then as it has been since Madeleine was abducted, Kerry would have received exactly the same treatment as the McCanns and the [ censored word ]s and the downright nasty would have been making the same accusations about Ben's family as they do about Madeleline's.

After all Ben was left to wander around outside unsupervised.   There was no evidence of an abduction and we only have the grandparents word for what happened, how long he was left on his own and that he was abducted.   The 'sceptics' would have had a field day IMO. 

After more than 20 years Kerry still hopes to be reunited with her son and is still looking for him.  She is applauded for that.   The McCanns have the same hope and after 6 years are also still searching for their daughter - but for some bizarre reason they are reviled and criticised for doing exactly the same. .

I believe both Ben and Madeleine were abducted and that the abductor is the criminal.   Neither families deliberately put those children at risk  - any more than Jamie Bulger's mother, or April Jones, or Sarah Paynes families did - and yet only the McCanns have been singled out as being wholly responsible for what happened to their child - and never the evil monster who abducted her.      I find that totally incomprehensible.

 

What you can't comprehend or accept is the irresponsibility demonstrated by 2 parents who should have known better. As you are more than well aware these two placed socializing in front of child safety for several nights in a row,etc.

Ben disappeared on a beach whilst the grandparents attention was diverted.

There would be no better thing if I and others would be proved wrong and Madeleine was found alive, likewise Ben.

What would your attitude be if it was proved there was no abduction and the Mccanns made it all up ?

[sadie]

What you can't comprehend or accept is the irresponsibility demonstrated by 2 parents who should have known better. As you are more than well aware these two placed socializing in front of child safety for several nights in a row,etc.

Ben disappeared on a beach whilst the grandparents attention was diverted.

There would be no better thing if I and others would be proved wrong and Madeleine was found alive, likewise Ben.

What would your attitude be if it was proved there was no abduction and the Mccanns made it all up ?

They went for their meal Stephen within the grounds of the aparthotel they werre staying at. Almost like their back garden. 
They were in sight of the apartment at only about 50 metres away. 
They could see the patio doors and the steps up.   The trees and bushes had just been cut back.
They were within hailing distance.

To remind you, I have personal experience of this distance, as my back garden was 50 metres long and we never had a problam if our children yelled us from the house.  A mother hears the sound of her own child above all else.

The back of the building was overlooked by the tapas group. 
There was a light on in the sitting room. 
The moment anyone had entered that sitting room, they would have been immediately visible to the tapas group. 
The movement of shape against light would have been very noticeable in such a generally dark vista. 

Bundleman didn't go in by the patio door because of this sitting room light and being overlooked. 
We can say that with almost 100% certainty and it is on record that Amaral said that too..


No-one could expect someone to enter a locked apartment, which The Mccanns believed the front to be.  Moreover, nobody would dream, at that time that their child would be stolen from her bed.

In retrospect they made a mistake, but it is a very human one ... and they were improving on the listening systems that were available all around the World before Madeleines disappearance.  These had been standard practice at anything from Butlins up to very smart hotels.  But since Madeleine was abducted is no longer used.

[Benice]

What you can't comprehend or accept is the irresponsibility demonstrated by 2 parents who should have known better. As you are more than well aware these two placed socializing in front of child safety for several nights in a row,etc.

Ben disappeared on a beach whilst the grandparents attention was diverted.

There would be no better thing if I and others would be proved wrong and Madeleine was found alive, likewise Ben.

What would your attitude be if it was proved there was no abduction and the Mccanns made it all up ?

Not true.  Ben disappeared from outside his grandparents farmhouse whilst they were inside.  There was no proof of an abduction.   Surely in your book that means the family are to be suspected of foul play and a cover up?  If not why not?

If it was proved that the McCanns 'made it all up' then I would say lock them up and throw away the key. 

However logic, reason and common sense tells me that  SY are right to eliminate them from their enquiries as they have the skills and expertise, the professionally translated files and access to information/people which ordinary members of the public such as yourself do not have.  So who is more likely to be right about what happened to Madeleine on 3rd May - you or SY?   

It's a 'no brainer' really isn't it Stephen unless of course you can explain why it is the professional detectives at SY who have got it all so wrong and not yourself.

 

[Lyall]

They went for their meal Stephen within the grounds of the aparthotel they werre staying at. Almost like their back garden. 
They were in sight of the apartment at only about 50 metres away. 
They could see the patio doors and the steps up.   The trees and bushes had just been cut back.
They were within hailing distance.

To remind you, I have personal experience of this distance, as my back garden was 50 metres long and we never had a problam if our children yelled us from the house.  A mother hears the sound of her own child above all else.

The back of the building was overlooked by the tapas group. 
There was a light on in the sitting room. 
The moment anyone had entered that sitting room, they would have been immediately visible to the tapas group. 
The movement of shape against light would have been very noticeable in such a generally dark vista. 

Bundleman didn't go in by the patio door because of this sitting room light and being overlooked. 
We can say that with almost 100% certainty and it is on record that Amaral said that too..


No-one could expect someone to enter a locked apartment, which The Mccanns believed the front to be.  Moreover, nobody would dream, at that time that their child would be stolen from her bed.

In retrospect they made a mistake, but it is a very human one ... and they were improving on the listening systems that were available all around the World before Madeleines disappearance.  These had been standard practice at anything from Butlins up to very smart hotels.  But since Madeleine was abducted is no longer used.

Does KM say the patio doors were visible from the restaurant in her book?

[sadie]

It's hardly the McCanns fault that Kerry Needham's Ben didn't have the  same attention as Madeleine.

IMO If the internet had been as prolific back then as it has been since Madeleine was abducted, Kerry would have received exactly the same treatment as the McCanns and the [ censored word ]s and the downright nasty would have been making the same accusations about Ben's family as they do about Madeleline's.

After all Ben was left to wander around outside unsupervised.   There was no evidence of an abduction and we only have the grandparents word for what happened, how long he was left on his own and that he was abducted.   The 'sceptics' would have had a field day IMO. 

After more than 20 years Kerry still hopes to be reunited with her son and is still looking for him.  She is applauded for that.   The McCanns have the same hope and after 6 years are also still searching for their daughter - but for some bizarre reason they are reviled and criticised for doing exactly the same. .

I believe both Ben and Madeleine were abducted and that the abductor is the criminal.   Neither families deliberately put those children at risk  - any more than Jamie Bulger's mother, or April Jones, or Sarah Paynes families did - and yet only the McCanns have been singled out as being wholly responsible for what happened to their child - and never the evil monster who abducted her.      I find that totally incomprehensible.

 

It's to do with jealousies of The Mccanns partially, and largely to do with Amarals disinformation "package" undermining The Mccanns, reviling The Mccanns and also the tapas group.   

Deliberate disinformation like that against Leonor Cipriano <<<< altho the disinformation about her hit unbelievable levels of cruelty.

And someone was whipping the fervour up, winding people up in quite an organised way, imo.  I wondere if it was the same peeps as those dropping red herrings everywhere to waste not only the time of the Mccanns team but also the fund money.  No money left and they cant search properly.


Very good post Benice

[sadie]

Does KM say the patio doors were visible from the restaurant in her book?

I have no idea, but I have been there and had a meal there and I know they were  End of. 

[Lyall]

I suggest reading it again then.

Have you read the book by Danny Collins?

[sadie]

Not true.  Ben disappeared from outside his grandparents farmhouse whilst they were inside.  There was no proof of an abduction.   Surely in your book that means the family are to be suspected of foul play and a cover up?  If not why not?

If it was proved that the McCanns 'made it all up' then I would say lock them up and throw away the key. 

However logic, reason and common sense tells me that  SY are right to eliminate them from their enquiries as they have the skills and expertise, the professionally translated files and access to information/people which ordinary members of the public such as yourself do not have.  So who is more likely to be right about what happened to Madeleine on 3rd May - you or SY?   

It's a 'no brainer' really isn't it Stephen unless of course you can explain why it is the professional detectives at SY who have got it all so wrong and not yourself.

So stephen?  Are you cleverer than SYard?

Benice, you hit the nail on the head every time.  Well done kiddo !

[Lyall]

Collins says "absolutely not visible".

[AnneGuedes]

The top of the window could eventually be seen by someone standing outside of the plastic cover, but, ceiling height being 2,80m (norm in Portugal), nobody entering, except for a giant, could be spotted.

[faithlilly]

I have no idea, but I have been there and had a meal there and I know they were  End of.

And I have also been thee and dispute what you say.

You say the foliage had just been cut back, how do you know that ?
You say the patio area and the steps to the patio could be seen from the tapas. Firstly how could you possibly know what the foliage was like on that night and secondly the steps are impossible to see from the tapas.

You are attempting to mislead people who have never been to PDL sadie, that is not fair.

[Lyall]

And I have also been thee and dispute what you say.

You say the foliage had just been cut back, how do you know that ?
You say the patio area and the steps to the patio could be seen from the tapas. Firstly how could you possibly know what the foliage was like on that night and secondly the steps are impossible to see from the tapas.

You are attempting to mislead people who have never been to PDL sadie, that is not fair.

You can't get more irrational than ignoring the contents of Madeleine's parents own book can you.

And also ignoring the contents of the documentaries made in 2007-9 supporting them - none of which claimed what she's claiming.

Sadie ignores the lot. It's dodgy dossier building out of control spin.

Only she knows why 8-)(--)

[stephen25000]

It's to do with jealousies of The Mccanns partially, and largely to do with Amarals disinformation "package" undermining The Mccanns, reviling The Mccanns and also the tapas group.   

Deliberate disinformation like that against Leonor Cipriano <<<< altho the disinformation about her hit unbelievable levels of cruelty.

And someone was whipping the fervour up, winding people up in quite an organised way, imo.  I wondere if it was the same peeps as those dropping red herrings everywhere to waste not only the time of the Mccanns team but also the fund money.  No money left and they cant search properly.


Very good post Benice

Jealousy of the Mccanns.

[sadie]

Collins says "absolutely not visible".

Whose Collins?  Cite please


All the bushes had just been cut back at the time of the abduction.  Greenery grows extraordinarily fast in the western Algarve.  Rain from the west and warmth. When did this Collins go and look, what was the state of the greenery and exactly where did he look from?

This photo was unfortunately taken when the greenery had grown, so it does not illustrate the Mccanns view as favourably as it was.



The photograph is taken from immediately outside the patio door to 5A.  You will see a swimming pool.  The two buildings with picture windows and immediately behind that pool  are the tapas outside restaurant.

We sat in the LH building but in the RH half.  We looked across the pool at 5A and could see virtually the whole patio window, top to bottom and side to side..

The Mccanns sat about 2 or 3 metres to the west of us, (meaning to the right of us in the photo), somewhere behind what looks like slim tree trunks.  With the foliage newly cut back, as it was then, (from contemporary photos at the abduction time), they would have seen most of the patio window and most of the steps up.

The internet and the media are misreporting the views.  The photos stored in such sites as the Mccannfiles are mainly taken from the wrong place and give a very distorted view.