Author Topic: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.  (Read 51554 times)

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Offline Albertini

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2013, 10:39:50 AM »
Oh dear oh dear oh dear- are you REALLY arguing semantics over this rogatory interview?

The following will give you a bit of a clue:
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Jane Tanner's rogatory interview, which took place on 08 April 2008, sourced from Duarte Levy

     
Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview I
     
Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview I Duarte Levy Wordpress
 
Posted by Duarte Levy
January 28, 2009 • 1:18 AM

If you are happy to do that, then I am afraid you are on your own  8)--)) @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

Oh dear oh dear oh dear- are you REALLY arguing over interpretators!

Well, that's up to you, but in the context of what she says the tense in which she speaks highlights the issue at hand.

It's hardly semantics, it's hugely relevent, but you don't want to see that because it doesn't support your view.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »
Provenance.........  @)(++(* @)(++(*

Offline Carana

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2013, 11:00:52 AM »
The UK police were only allowed to ask what they had been instructed to by the Portuguese police. They were not allowed to interrogate any of the friends or build on any of their answers.

Amongst the questions:

* Any further questions deemed useful, necessary or pertinent in view of the previous replies.

* And also (questions drawn up by the arguidos (formal suspects).


Besides, the PJ were there for quite a few of the interviews, weren't they?

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2013, 11:10:51 AM »
Oh dear oh dear oh dear- are you REALLY arguing over interpretators!

Well, that's up to you, but in the context of what she says the tense in which she speaks highlights the issue at hand.

It's hardly semantics, it's hugely relevent, but you don't want to see that because it doesn't support your view.

Not interpreters - but any document that has been interpreted from one language to another will inevitably lose some of the subtleties of tense and meaning - which renders an argument based on such things rather pointless. 

My main concern is Duarte Levy.  This is the man of "photos" notoriety - and a journalist with an axe to grind really cannot be taken as a reliable source.
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Albertini or inideed anyone else - a challenge for you -

can you come up with any source which says that Jane Tanner specifically identified Robert Murat as the man she saw carrying a child?   

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2013, 11:11:16 AM »
Amongst the questions:

* Any further questions deemed useful, necessary or pertinent in view of the previous replies.

* And also (questions drawn up by the arguidos (formal suspects).


Besides, the PJ were there for quite a few of the interviews, weren't they?

The UK police weren't allowed to ask further questions, only the PJ and it seems they found Tanner's answer perfectly clear.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2013, 11:14:18 AM »
Not interpreters - but any document that has been interpreted from one language to another will inevitably lose some of the subtleties of tense and meaning - which renders an argument based on such things rather pointless. 

My main concern is Duarte Levy.  This is the man of "photos" notoriety - and a journalist with an axe to grind really cannot be taken as a reliable source.
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Albertini or inideed anyone else - a challenge for you -

can you come up with any source which says that Jane Tanner specifically identified Robert Murat as the man she saw carrying a child?

The rogatory interviews were conducted in English and the transcript released in English. Where is the interpretation ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Albertini

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2013, 11:22:21 AM »
Not interpreters - but any document that has been interpreted from one language to another will inevitably lose some of the subtleties of tense and meaning - which renders an argument based on such things rather pointless. 

My main concern is Duarte Levy.  This is the man of "photos" notoriety - and a journalist with an axe to grind really cannot be taken as a reliable source.
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Albertini or inideed anyone else - a challenge for you -

can you come up with any source which says that Jane Tanner specifically identified Robert Murat as the man she saw carrying a child?

Yes, Jane herself.

As per the "i thought it was" comment.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2013, 11:48:11 AM »
Yes, Jane herself.

As per the "i thought it was" comment.

So we have TWO incidents described in the Rogatory interview:

"so I didn’t really, but I didn’t even recognise it as the person I’d been talking to five minutes before, well, you know, half an hour before, so.  Erm, and then, erm, then went, I think because it has gone a bit wrong because this car had been there and then tried to set it up elsewhere, but again I couldn’t really see, I couldn’t really see that well and, you know, it didn’t look, it didn’t jog, jog any memories”.

 

4078    “Now you are left with that mental image in your head about the man carrying the child”.

Reply    “Umm”.

 

4078    “And you said, you described his hair quite well.  Having seen MURAT then and obviously in the papers since, could you link the two of those?”

Reply    “I don’t think so.  I mean, I don’t, phew, I don’t, I don’t think it, no, there doesn’t, there’s no, but then the person I see in the paper doesn’t really look like my recollection of the person I met on the way to meet Bob SMALL.  It’s really annoying because normally I would have probably taken more notice but I was so worried about what I was going to do, because I didn’t know at this point at all, I didn’t really take any notice, but I think it was too short and I remember it being, being long into the neck and not so.  Again, I don’t really, when I saw Robert MURAT outside his house he looked quite little to me, but then when you see him on the telly he seems quite bit, so I can’t, again, I don’t think the build, the build was right, I don’t”.

 

4078    “So you don’t feel, in your heart of hearts”.

Reply    “No”.

 

4078    “You don’t feel it was the same person?”

Reply    “No, I don’t, no”."

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Then there is this - later in the interview where they are discussing whether Russel and Rachel had seen Murat around the complex on the night in question.  It was here that Tanner said she wasnt sure whether she had seen him or not - e.g   4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

 

4078    “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.

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Putting that comment in the context of the actual interview (something that you seem strangely reluctent to do). 

 4078    “Yes, yes go on”.
 Reply    “Erm well I think it’s when I’d done the, well I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards. So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”.
 


4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
 

4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

 

4078    “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.

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In summary - these are two entirely different things.  4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

 
clearly does not realte to the man Tanner saw carrying a child.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2013, 12:13:31 PM »
Quote
In summary - these are two entirely different things.  4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.
 
clearly does not realte to the man Tanner saw carrying a child.

So what in your opinion does Jane's comment relate to?

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2013, 12:17:55 PM »
The whole Jane Tanner sighting and subsequent surveillance appears to be one big muddle.  The only reason she was taken out to observe Murat walking about the street was because of what she and others had previously implied.  In her interview she admits she originally thought it was Murat but later changed her mind.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2013, 12:24:23 PM »
So what in your opinion does Jane's comment relate to?

It is quite simple really:  Rachel and Russell thought they had seen Murat at the OC complex on the night of the 3rd, after the disappearance and when the GNR had been called.  Tanner was not sure - hence the second extract from Tanner's rogatory interview culminating in "I thought it was".  If you actually read the extract, thenh it is pretty self explanatory. 

It is in no way related to whether he was the man she saw carrying a child.   

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Offline Albertini

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2013, 01:05:54 PM »
It is quite simple really:  Rachel and Russell thought they had seen Murat at the OC complex on the night of the 3rd, after the disappearance and when the GNR had been called.  Tanner was not sure - hence the second extract from Tanner's rogatory interview culminating in "I thought it was".  If you actually read the extract, thenh it is pretty self explanatory. 

It is in no way related to whether he was the man she saw carrying a child.   

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Tanner, wasn't sure of what? She never gave a statement saying she saw Murat at the OC that night, did she?

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2013, 01:28:07 PM »
I think you will have to read it for yourself - it was as a response to Russell and Rachel having apparently cliamed that Murat was at the OC complex on the night of the 3rd.  Murat denied this.  It seems Jane was not sure. 
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 4078    “Yes, yes go on”.
 Reply    “Erm well I think it’s when I’d done the, well I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards. So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”.
 

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
 

4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.
 

4078    “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.

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Albertini - I really cannot see how you are making any connection between this episode and the "surveillance / refrigerated van" one - where Tanner very clearly states that Murat was NOT the man she saw carrying a child.

Now - you still have not really answered the question - can you find a source which says that Tanner identifed Murat as the man she saw carrying a child? 

Offline Carana

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2013, 02:03:11 PM »
My understanding is that Jane did not identify Murat as the person she recalled during the van episode.

She did phone Bob Small (when Murat then appeared on TV) to pass on what several people thought strange at the time and to mention the fact that she'd bumped in to him prior to this van event.

What's odd about that?

How can that be construed as having identified him during that van episode, or even identifiying him later? Simply passing on a doubt due to circumstances doesn't mean identification.


Offline Angelo222

Re: The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2013, 02:31:29 PM »
According to Mr Amaral from his book.

Jane tanner Formally Recognises Robert Murat

Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance.  She is sitting inside an unmarked car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted.  The vehicle is parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd.  Robert Murat, anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as the alleged abductor.  Jane tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw that night.  She definitely recognises his way of walking.  But does he resemble the description she painted previously?



So there we have it, Robert Murat walks in a similar way to that of Bundleman but doesn't resemble him.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!