Author Topic: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?  (Read 27330 times)

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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2013, 10:14:50 AM »
the pros will carry on about  how   i myself  was left alone ina hotel room BUT  i was  11    and my parents and their friends were out for dinner and i had a meltdown/tantrum   and  my parents got in big trouble from other guests because i was very distressed     ( long story but anyway)   but there is a  world of diffrence between a  3 year old and a  11 year old  and  our parents never did it again they were embarrased and ashamed

Yes Carlymichelle.

The mccann supporters will criticize everyone except their heroes

CPN

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2013, 10:33:48 AM »
No worry Cariad (re the repeating) - it seemed an opportunity to reinforce the message.

The dismissal of the accident statistics (and the reasons for them) is very worrying to me. As is the fact that the reason WHY the McCanns should have known better, which I outlined, is also dismissed.  And the fact that what they did was a deliberate decision, even after Madeleine was known to have cried in their absence, rather than the constantly reported "mistake". 

I have also added before that fact that the floors in the apartment, were, I think  (as they are usually in Portugal I believe) made of stone so any fall would be more damaging.  They are all aspects that responsible parents would take into account before leaving three such young children alone. 

The further guidelines for parents if they do decide to leave their children alone are:
 •leave a contact telephone number and be available to answer it immediately
•talk to your child about keeping safe at home and point out the potential dangers
•tell them not to answer the door to strangers
•give clear instructions on what to do in an emergency - they should be able to phone the emergency services
•leave a list of trusted people they can contact
•put obvious dangers out of reach of children, for example, medicines, matches
•make sure that your child is happy about the arrangements and confident about being left
•tell your child when you'll be back and make sure you're back on time
•talk to him or her about it afterwards.

all of which would be pretty difficult for such young children, and some of which specifically apply in the McCann case - eg "tell them not to answer the door to strangers" (a bit daft if you are going to leave the door open anyway) and "make sure that your child is happy about the arrangements and confident about being left" (it doesn't sound as if Madeleine was from the talk of her and Sean crying) and "talk to him or her about it afterwards" (well, in a way they did, except that Madeleine started the conversation and the mother seems to have dismissed this)

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2013, 10:37:01 AM »
No worry Cariad (re the repeating) - it seemed an opportunity to reinforce the message.

The dismissal of the accident statistics (and the reasons for them) is very worrying to me. As is the fact that the reason WHY the McCanns should have known better, which I outlined, is also dismissed.  And the fact that what they did was a deliberate decision, even after Madeleine was known to have cried in their absence, rather than the constantly reported "mistake". 

I have also added before that fact that the floors in the apartment, were, I think  (as they are usually in Portugal I believe) made of stone so any fall would be more damaging.  They are all aspects that responsible parents would take into account before leaving three such young children alone. 

The further guidelines for parents if they do decide to leave their children alone are:
 •leave a contact telephone number and be available to answer it immediately
•talk to your child about keeping safe at home and point out the potential dangers
•tell them not to answer the door to strangers
•give clear instructions on what to do in an emergency - they should be able to phone the emergency services
•leave a list of trusted people they can contact
•put obvious dangers out of reach of children, for example, medicines, matches
•make sure that your child is happy about the arrangements and confident about being left
•tell your child when you'll be back and make sure you're back on time
•talk to him or her about it afterwards.

all of which would be pretty difficult for such young children, and some of which specifically apply in the McCann case - eg "tell them not to answer the door to strangers" (a bit daft if you are going to leave the door open anyway) and "make sure that your child is happy about the arrangements and confident about being left" (it doesn't sound as if Madeleine was from the talk of her and Sean crying) and "talk to him or her about it afterwards" (well, in a way they did, except that Madeleine started the conversation and the mother seems to have dismissed this)

Thanks for that CPN.

Now let's see if there are any reasoned and logical  replies from the mccann supporters.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2013, 01:46:49 PM »
im not  sure in the uk  but  here  many  babies and toddlers  die from old  blinds in windows they get   the cords twisted around their necks  its  very tragic and it shows little ones should never be left alone


Good point, carlymichelle. Blinds and many other household items come with warnings now about child safety.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2013, 01:59:07 PM »
Just out of interest is there a possibility that at least some cot deaths may have been included within fatal accidents in the home?
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2013, 02:11:37 PM »
#
Just out of interest is there a possibility that at least some cot deaths may have been included within fatal accidents in the home?

I have just been looking at some info associated with that.

Current advice to parents is that young babies are safest sleeping in the same bedroom as parents. Cot deaths tend to occur more often if the child has been unattended for a while. Various reasons for this - not all relevant to this thread. But the research is there.

Seems to me just plain common sense that the longer a child of any age is left unattended, the greater the chance of an accident of some description taking place.

CPN

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2013, 02:13:34 PM »
Just out of interest is there a possibility that at least some cot deaths may have been included within fatal accidents in the home?

My first response would be "unlikely - as cot deaths are not usually subsequent to accidents.

But I checked http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a419/sudden-infant-death-syndrome-sids which says: "In less than half of all cases of SIDS, a health condition, illness or accident is found to be the cause" and http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a418/safety-in-your-babys-bedroom gives more information and some examples as to how accidents can cause cot death (as I understand the page) eg  "If your cot is second-hand and painted, strip and re-paint it with lead-free paint. If your child breathes in lead dust, lead fumes or swallows anything with lead in it, he can get lead poisoning, which can cause learning disabilities and other neurological problems." and - (my addition) maybe cot death.  Personally I would have though that a health condition or illness were far more likely to lead to a cot death for the reason I have already given


« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 02:15:35 PM by CPN »

Offline gilet

Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2013, 02:56:13 PM »
the pros will carry on about  how   i myself  was left alone ina hotel room BUT  i was  11    and my parents and their friends were out for dinner and i had a meltdown/tantrum   and  my parents got in big trouble from other guests because i was very distressed     ( long story but anyway)   but there is a  world of diffrence between a  3 year old and a  11 year old  and  our parents never did it again they were embarrased and ashamed

No wonder they were ashamed! Having an eleven year old child who has a screaming tantrum would make most parents ashamed. I hope you were ashamed as well.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2013, 03:03:16 PM »
The dismissal of the accident statistics (and the reasons for them) is very worrying to me.

I'm sure you know all about the prosecutors' fallacy.

Ally that to 3 zonked and exhausted children, all tucked up in bed, sleeping soundly and looked in on regularly while the parents dined a handful of yards away ...

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2013, 03:19:52 PM »

Good point, carlymichelle. Blinds and many other household items come with warnings now about child safety.

There was a couple on TV just yesterday I think calling for a ban, as their child sadly did die that way.

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2013, 03:25:21 PM »
The dismissal of the accident statistics (and the reasons for them) is very worrying to me.

I'm sure you know all about the prosecutors' fallacy.

Ally that to 3 zonked and exhausted children, all tucked up in bed, sleeping soundly and looked in on regularly while the parents dined a handful of yards away ...

Six years on and you and others are still excusing it. Bonkers.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2013, 03:41:09 PM »
The dismissal of the accident statistics (and the reasons for them) is very worrying to me.

I'm sure you know all about the prosecutors' fallacy.

Ally that to 3 zonked and exhausted children, all tucked up in bed, sleeping soundly and looked in on regularly while the parents dined a handful of yards away ...

Two observations ferryman.  One...why were they (sic) zonked?    And two...Kate McCann never checked on Madeleine once in all the time she was in the tapas restaurant.  Does that sound like a caring mother or a mother who knew they were zonked and were hardly likely to wake up even if a coach and horses were driven through that bedroom??

It would be worthy of note if this was a break in the evening routine she had established?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 03:47:39 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2013, 03:53:14 PM »
Just out of interest is there a possibility that at least some cot deaths may have been included within fatal accidents in the home?

My first response would be "unlikely - as cot deaths are not usually subsequent to accidents.

But I checked http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a419/sudden-infant-death-syndrome-sids which says: "In less than half of all cases of SIDS, a health condition, illness or accident is found to be the cause" and http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a418/safety-in-your-babys-bedroom gives more information and some examples as to how accidents can cause cot death (as I understand the page) eg  "If your cot is second-hand and painted, strip and re-paint it with lead-free paint. If your child breathes in lead dust, lead fumes or swallows anything with lead in it, he can get lead poisoning, which can cause learning disabilities and other neurological problems." and - (my addition) maybe cot death.  Personally I would have though that a health condition or illness were far more likely to lead to a cot death for the reason I have already given




I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that cot deaths are recorded as death by naturel causes by a coroner so wouldn't fall into an accidental death.

more figures:

I found this sight today 
http://www.pact-online.org/index.php/taken/taken-study

You can download a booklet giving information on child abductions in the UK.
 
They cover all types off abductions, but I'll post snippets of the data relevant to our discussion here.

Abductions by a stranger The police data included 247 cases (273 victims) where a child was abducted by  a stranger. Three-quarters were attempted abductions.

(273 divided by four = 68.25 successful stranger abductions)

Four attempted abductions by strangers occurred when an offender tried to deceive hospital staff, school staff or the parent themselves into releasing the child into their care. In 22 cases the offender attempted to take a young child in the presence of their parent(s) whilst in a shopping centre, supermarket, play area, other public places, or – in one case – from their home.


(This was an attempted abduction)

Abductions by a stranger accounted for the single largest category of all abductions (42 per cent of all cases). However, in 186 cases, the offender failed to actually  abduct the victim(s) and the case was an attempted abduction18. Therefore, three- quarters of stranger abductions were actually attempted abductions.


(Attempted) abduction with parent present
Two children were removed from their home address. In one case a neighbour entered the victim’s home, assaulted the mother, and then left with the victim, before the mother regained the child. In the other case, a person whose relationship to the
victim was not known removed the child from their home address while their mother was upstairs but was stopped nearby.

Completed abductions by strangers (sexual motive) 15 children, in 12 cases, were successfully abducted by an offender with a clear  sexual motive.         
The victims ranged in age from 7 to 17 years, with 11 victims being between 13 and 17 years old. Three victims were boys; the rest were girls. 12 victims were white, one was black, one was of other ethnic origin and the ethnicity of one was not known.
Five of the victims suffered a sexual assault as a result of the offence (see Table A6 in the Appendix)33. Two boys suffered a sex attack after being lured back to an offender’s  house where they stayed the night. Three   girls were raped, each in separate offences. Two had first met the perpetrator online (see text box for more details). The third was forced into a car whilst walking and was released after the offence.
Three other victims suffered minor physical injuries. In two of these cases the victim’s clothing was removed. The remaining seven victims suffered no apparent physical injuries (though it is very likely that emotional or psychological trauma did result from the offences).
All offences lasted for less than 24 hours, with the exception of one case which continued for between one and two days (in two cases this information was not available). Two cases involved the victim being abducted by more than one offender, though both resulted in no physical injury.
In four cases the victim(s) was abducted from a street, in three cases the victim was in a park, common or open space, two victims were in a bus station at the time of the offence, and two were near to their home address.
As a result of these incidents police recorded eight offences of child abduction, six offences of kidnapping and one offence of abduction (Scotland) (see Table A1, Appendix).
Abduction by stranger (unconfirmed sexual motive) Though unconfirmed, the motive in several other abductions completed by strangers appeared to be sexual.
In one case a registered sex offender befriended two young children and took them back to his house, where he gave them food and let them play on a games console. They left a short time later with no apparent sexual offence having been committed.
In another case, a girl was picked up by a man she met on a social networking site and was taken back to his home. The victim called the police and she was released without any apparent physical injury. In a separate offence, a girl was dragged into bushes but was released after screaming and alerting a passer-by.


So according to this information there were no successful child abductions from the home in the given period (12 months I believe, from 2011/2012, )

It's also worth noting that the mean age of a victim was 13 years.

The booklet is 82 pages long, I have picked very small points out of a lot of data. I highly recommend reading all the relevant passages and looking at the graphs in context.

Cariad.

CPN

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2013, 04:13:34 PM »
The dismissal of the accident statistics (and the reasons for them) is very worrying to me.

I'm sure you know all about the prosecutors' fallacy.

Ally that to 3 zonked and exhausted children, all tucked up in bed, sleeping soundly and looked in on regularly while the parents dined a handful of yards away ...

A) not zonked enough to not wake and cry on other evenings (and who knows when other times), so not always sleeping soundly.  And children usually sleep less soundly when in strange surroundings
B) A handful of yards away (!!!) but beyond the range whereby the children could be heard and seen, assuming there was indeed an abduction.

Your attempts to excuse the behaviour of the parents I find a disgrace - as well as untruthful

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Fatal accidents in the home versus abductions. Is there are comparison?
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2013, 04:19:58 PM »
Ferryman must have massive hands!
 @)(++(*