How did he do it?

[abs]

But had shiela prepared for the final act surely she would want to be found wearing underwear?
Would she want to be found without?

It could be very simple. She could have brought two sets of panties and they were both soiled, so she had no clean underwear left. Some clothes of hers were soaking in a bucket (or two?) I know there was a pair of pants, a top (both black, I believe) and at least one pair of bloodied panties. I would like to know in more detail what laundry there was around the house, clean and unclean.

[puglove]

so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.

It depends what thread you read - in another one he has Ralph and Sheila fighting naked in the kitchen. Or maybe that was 'Smiffy'...

So June calmly and efficiently shot the little boys? her sleeping grandchildren? is that what hes saying? he should be ashamed of himself

[Weety]

so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.

It depends what thread you read - in another one he has Ralph and Sheila fighting naked in the kitchen. Or maybe that was 'Smiffy'...

So June calmly and efficiently shot the little boys? her sleeping grandchildren? is that what hes saying? he should be ashamed of himself

Yes, something like that. It's apparently based on Jeremy's recollection (years later) that when Ralph called him he may have said "she's got the gun..." and not "Sheila's got the gun..."

Of course this theory is completely at odds with his phone call / logs theory, since if the two logs represented two phone calls, one from Jeremy who had misheard Ralph and so described Sheila, and the other from Ralph, Ralph would have said "My wife's got the gun..." and described her instead.

[puglove]

What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.

It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear.   

[Angelo222]

Doing her hair and makeup would have been a rational decision also

Imo if sheila did the deed she would have waited until she was back in London, she didn't like whf, she would have killed herself and her sons in her own home, also she would have wanted to die next to her children.

Now if she did it at whf, then the same thing would happened, she would have wanted to die next to her kids.

But the supposed conversation, around the kitchen table, of social services being brought in and to Sheila, the possibility of someone else having her children, of her losing them, could have sent her over the edge.   The panic, the fear, the anxiety could be enough to bring upon a sudden lapse of rational thinking, depending on her then state of mind.

Maybe the phone calls where to be made the following day, to ask for help.   Sheila may not have fully understood exactly what was being said and flipped....or panicked.

Something within Sheila's mind takes over, and she sets out to ensure she is never seperated from her sons.  To ensure this, her sons would be first on the list.  Next, mum and dad.

In this state, she then prepares herself for being re-united not only with her sons, but with her mu and dad.  If she did do this, she also made sure the boys never missed their grandparents.......and if the phone call is to be believed also, she also tried to make sure her sons never went without their uncle Jeremy too.

Maybe her thinking was to keep the family together - they were not going to be seperated, she loved her sons so much, she did it for them.

Crazy, irrational.....but is this not something that could have been going through Sheila's mind, before she embarked upon her plan to solve the problem that she understood the family had and it's consequences?

That's a nice theory Firstimearound but that is all it is.  It does not fit in with any of the known facts.  Let me explain.


According to Jeremy he telephoned the police around 3.26am possibly a bit earlier or later.  We also know for sure that Sgt Bews and his entourage arrive at about 3.45am.  We also know that there was no movement in the house at that point, nobody moving around, no noises and no running water or a hair dryer.

So what we are left with is that you expect us to believe that Sheila fought with Nevill, shot him, went upstairs and had a bath, cleaned up and dried her hair before getting round to shooting herself all in the space of 20 minutes?

It is a nice thought though and full marks for bringing it up but it just doesn't fit.

[Angelo222]

What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.

It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear.   

I agree, Julie may be different things to different people at different times in the last 26 year but she is CONSISTENT and CONFIDENT and always has been.  Her evidence is unshakable basically.   

[mitch]

so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.

It depends what thread you read - in another one he has Ralph and Sheila fighting naked in the kitchen. Or maybe that was 'Smiffy'...

So June calmly and efficiently shot the little boys? her sleeping grandchildren? is that what hes saying? he should be ashamed of himself

Impossible going by the evidence.  June Bamber was shot when Jeremy came into the bedroom and first shot Nevill.  Nevill probably took the chance to escape down the stairs when June was being shot.

[John]

What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.

It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear.   

I agree, Julie may be different things to different people at different times in the last 26 year but she is CONSISTENT and CONFIDENT and always has been.  Her evidence is unshakable basically.

As I stated earlier this morning I will invite comments from Julie in relation to the way she has been portrayed and the potential libel against her.  I will post her response assuming I get one.   

[John]

In my opinion it needed two intruders to control the situation properly or the entire attempt could have ended in farce.  I have a feeling that one intruder kept Sheila at bay while Nevill was being assaulted downstairs.  I don't believe that Sheila ever knew the twins had been killed or she would have been impossible to control.  Shona is right about the gouge marks on her as well.

I don´t agree about the gouge marks. To me they look like streams of blood coming from Sheila taking her arm up to the first wound. I have seen this happen. My husband had a sudden, fierce nosebleed. He took his arm up, placed the back of his hand on the nose and leaned forward. To my amazement, I saw the almost exact patterns of blood run down his lower arm as those seen on the photos of Sheila - I mean, it looked so similar, that my jaw dropped. The blood dried very, very quickly making the same pooling at the end of the streams of blood.
I CAN´T see that they are gouge marks, and they look nothing like the marks on Ralph´s arm, which are gouge marks. Made by what I don´t know; I don´t think fingernails, but I don´t really know, of course.

Undoubtedly, the marks on Nevill's arm were made by coming into contact with the damaged rifle stock which would have had sharp frayed edges.

[John]

While you're waiting for him, could it be that the magazine was refilled after shooting the twins? If it seemed that he hadn't yet been discovered, wouldn't that have been a good opportunity to do so?

Absolutely possible. I would also throw in the possibility that the killer carried ammunition in their pockets. I like bouncing ideas around, tis a good way to learn about the case.

Yes, not many pockets in a nightie...

 

or if you are naked.

Ha ha, yes!

He would have carried the extra ammo or another magazine already loaded if he was properly prepared.

[John]

Hello Weety, What do you make of one of the twins being shot in an arc? At first i thought that an 'arc' was a shape or pattern but i believe it is a shooting style. Don't know that much about guns.  8-)(--)

I don't know what to make of the 'arc' description to be honest, it makes me think of someone shooting a large object and moving the gun in an arc whilst doing so. I don't know how to interpret that in the context of a small boy's head. Certainly the implication is that the shots were all delivered at the same time, but do we know that that is definately the case?

I agree, We cannot know for sure. I shall move on to my next point. Assuming the gun was fully loaded with 10 rounds. If the twins were shot with a bullet each, this would leave 8 bullets left in the gun. Again, assuming that the killer entered the main bedroom next. I have always thought that the next spree of shooting at June and Nevill and possibly Sheila was more than 8 rounds. The maths just don't add up to me, for the twins being shot first.

John knows a lot more than I do about how many bullets were fired and where, but wouldn't that explain how Ralph managed to escape down the stairs?

The gun doesn't make much noise I agree and the twins could have slept through the initial rumpus.  The twins offered the least resistance as well so weren't a priority target.  That all said, the twins were shot as they slept.

I will have a look at this later but I want to ask everyone something.  There were bullet holes in the pillow in the twins room and even a bullet in one of them.  I have a feeling Jeremy found to his dismay that the .22 round was not as good a killing machine as he had first thought.  He had no way of knowing how many rounds it would take to stop a an adult person as he found when he fired the first shots at June and Nevill.  I think he was shocked that Nevill and June were still walking after he pumped two bullets into each of them and when the gun jammed (as it tended to do) or he ran out of ammunition, Nevill took the chance to go for help downstairs. 

[Angelo222]

The gun doesn't make much noise I agree and the twins could have slept through the initial rumpus.  The twins offered the least resistance as well so weren't a priority target.  That all said, the twins were shot as they slept.

I will have a look at this later but I want to ask everyone something.  There were bullet holes in the pillow in the twins room and even a bullet in one of them.  I have a feeling Jeremy found to his dismay that the .22 round was not as good a killing machine as he had first thought.  He had no way of knowing how many rounds it would take to stop a an adult person as he found when he fired the first shots at June and Nevill.  I think he was shocked that Nevill and June were still walking after he pumped two bullets into each of them and when the gun jammed (as it tended to do) or he ran out of ammunition, Nevill took the chance to go for help downstairs.

Do you think he put the pillow over their head before shooting them, that would have been the sensible thing to do but maybe the pillow provided too much resistance to a .22 round?    Nevill didn't get far and he certainly didn't get to the phone or his blood would have been all over it and on the floor adjacent.  He seems to have been clobbered just as he entered the kitchen and then beaten with the rifle.  Just enough time for the shooter to reload and then shoot him again as he collapsed in his chair by the Aga.

[puglove]

Just been listening to Simon McKay on radio 4. Interesting programme about witness protection.

[Milly]

What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.

It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear.   

I agree, Julie may be different things to different people at different times in the last 26 year but she is CONSISTENT and CONFIDENT and always has been.  Her evidence is unshakable basically.

As I stated earlier this morning I will invite comments from Julie in relation to the way she has been portrayed and the potential libel against her.  I will post her response assuming I get one.   

I for one hope she replies to you and places her feelings on the matter in the public domain at this point in time.  I feel that ITV1 had no reason to state that she had not responded to their enquiries.  Why the hell should she contribute anything to such an amateurishly made program.

IMO the woman did well.     

[Admin]

There were bullet holes in the pillow in the twins room and even a bullet in one of them.  I have a feeling Jeremy found to his dismay that the .22 round was not as good a killing machine as he had first thought.  He had no way of knowing how many rounds it would take to stop a an adult person as he found when he fired the first shots at June and Nevill.  I think he was shocked that Nevill and June were still walking after he pumped two bullets into each of them and when the gun jammed (as it tended to do) or he ran out of ammunition, Nevill took the chance to go for help downstairs.

You have hit the nail on the head there John.  Bamber was dismayed when his favourite rifle couldn't kill with one or two shots.  Shooting little bunnies in the garden is one thing but an adult human being is something else. He nearly emptied a magazine into poor June and Nevill as they put up such a struggle against him.