Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?

[Mr Gray]

No idea, don't know the details, the beach in question etc. Presumably they would have had no responsibility if they had been on holiday in Mogadishu?

interestingly there was a man murdered on a beach holiday in Kenya...so that would be his own fault as well

[slartibartfast]

that's where they were

Surely not....

[slartibartfast]

interestingly there was a man murdered on a beach holiday in Kenya...so that would be his own fault as well

You're a bit black and white aren't you?

[Benice]

You don't leave your kids alone in a different building until they are old enough to look after themselves. Simple.

I've been on caravan sites where parents go to the Club Room - leaving their children asleep in their caravans.

I've been at parties where neighbours who have been invited have left their children asleep and kept nipping back home to check on them.

When my son was on holiday abroad a couple of years ago - he noticed quite a number of Baby Alarms on the bars and tables - belonging to parents who had left their children asleep in their rooms.

Then there are the thousands of parents who sign up for the Listening Service when they go on holiday.

If all the above were accused of neglecting their children - I very much doubt they would agree with that - in fact  they would be outraged IMO.      However hopefully there are parents who - because of what happened to Madeleine, have decided not to continue with childcare arrangements which involve leaving children sleeping alone.

In the meantime - until the Listening service is no longer offered anywhere  - we have to accept that the reason it is still offered as a 'service' is because there is a demand from parents for it.   

[G-Unit]

baby listening has been an acceptable part of british parenting for the last 50 years with no record of any serious mishaps. Maddie has changed all that. All I can see is you and others using it as another stick to beat the mccanns...simple

I think the important word is 'baby'. None of the McCann children were babies. I don't know anything about age limits for these services but a baby is a child under one year of age. Children below one year will mostly cry if they need anything (unless they've vomited and choked, obviously). Older children may not cry, they may quietly get out of bed and into mischief, so listening at the door tells you nothing.

It's not a case of looking for sticks to beat the McCanns with, it's a case of pointing out that they share the responsibility for what happened to their daughter. Ignoring or excusing that responsibility is just another example of the complete denial supporters of the McCanns exhibit. It doesn't matter how much people protest, leaving mobile children home alone is a very risky business.

[G-Unit]

If the McCanns had done what you say (in bold above) - what do you think the reaction of people like yourself would have been?

Would it have been 

 (1)  ''Well done the McCanns - for giving that sound advice'

or would it have been:

(2) ''How dare you!  I don't need YOUR advice - as unlike YOU - I would never have left my children in the first place!''

I suggest it would be No. 2 - and the McCanns would have been ripped to ribbons for saying it.    In fact IMO it would have become one of the biggest sticks ever used to beat them with - and would be dragged out ad nauseam as proof of their 'arrogance'.

Quote from KMs book

.......however unwittingly we'd given this predator an opportunity..  We had not been there for Madeleine. And, as I've said before and will say again, our guilt over that is a heavv cross we will bear for the rest of our lives.
Page 202
Unquote

Quote from KM
''Whatever we had or had not done right, we were Madeleine's 'parents and in our own eyes we had failed to keep her safe. We struggled to bear that sense of guilt and we always will.
Unquote.

Those two examples alone are clear admissions of the guilt they feel and will feel  for the rest of their lives.     

So why do some sceptics claim they have never blamed themselves?  It is simply not true.

Kate is right when she says 'unwittingly', their wits seem to have completely deserted them. They failed to keep their children safe in other's eyes. as well as in their own. Perhaps it's time for their supporters to accept that fact also. It's the denial of their culpability by their supporters which prompts people to keep mentioning it. They aren't completely innocent victims, they contributed to the situation.

[Eleanor]

What The McCanns did remains a matter of opinion.

[Benice]

Kate is right when she says 'unwittingly', their wits seem to have completely deserted them. They failed to keep their children safe in other's eyes. as well as in their own. Perhaps it's time for their supporters to accept that fact also. It's the denial of their culpability by their supporters which prompts people to keep mentioning it. They aren't completely innocent victims, they contributed to the situation.

[/b]

So if this isn't an admission of their ''contribution to the situation''  - what is it?

 ''we'd given this predator an opportunity..  ''

[stephen25000]

[/b]

So if this isn't an admission of their ''contribution to the situation''  - what is it?

 ''we'd given this predator an opportunity..  ''

Do you believe by repeating the mantra of 'predator' that people will believe it.

Now let's have some actual evidence, someone other than the mccanns or associates were in the apartment.

[Benice]

I think the important word is 'baby'. None of the McCann children were babies. I don't know anything about age limits for these services but a baby is a child under one year of age. Children below one year will mostly cry if they need anything (unless they've vomited and choked, obviously). Older children may not cry, they may quietly get out of bed and into mischief, so listening at the door tells you nothing.

It's not a case of looking for sticks to beat the McCanns with, it's a case of pointing out that they share the responsibility for what happened to their daughter. Ignoring or excusing that responsibility is just another example of the complete denial supporters of the McCanns exhibit. It doesn't matter how much people protest, leaving mobile children home alone is a very risky business.

Life is full of all kinds of risks when it comes to babies/children.  Every time you put them in a car are you not knowingly putting their lives in danger?  What parent isn't aware that children die in car crashes every year?

IMO your expectations of how parents should look after their children are unworkable.  If it was possible to behave as I believeyou are suggesting  - there would be no children in A&E, no children drowning in baths, no children consuming pills thinking they are sweets and no cot deaths - to name but a few.

To enable that perfect situation parents would need to have their children under their surveillance 24/7 and never ever be guilty of  human error.  The fact that there is no such thing as a perfect parent seems to have escaped you - particularly when it comes to the McCanns.

The McCanns have said more than once how guilty they feel about what happened to their daughter.  How you can dispute that fact and claim it is 'supporters' who are in denial is a mystery to me.

[stephen25000]

What is repeated it seems ad infinitum, was that the mccanns were behaving responsibly.

They weren't.

leaving your children for extended periods by themselves with infrequent checks, and with no security, is pure unmitigated negligence and nothing else.

[G-Unit]

[/b]

So if this isn't an admission of their ''contribution to the situation''  - what is it?

 ''we'd given this predator an opportunity..  ''

I wasn't actually referring to the McCanns I was referring to those who seek to excuse what they did by saying things like 'everybody does it' and 'it's the abductor's fault not the parent's'.

[Benice]

I wasn't actually referring to the McCanns I was referring to those who seek to excuse what they did by saying things like 'everybody does it' and 'it's the abductor's fault not the parent's'.

I have never claimed that 'everybody does it'  - and have never read a post on here making that claim.

However it is FACT that just as thousands of people agree with you re their childcare - thousands do NOT agree with you - and amongst the latter will be the tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who have done the same themselves in the past - especially whilst on holiday - and those who still do.   

The reluctance by sceptics to even admit their existence speaks volumes IMO. 

And yes I do blame the abductor(s).   What is there in their behaviour that can possibly be excused?    Please clarify.

[Mr Gray]

What is repeated it seems ad infinitum, was that the mccanns were behaving responsibly.

They weren't.

leaving your children for extended periods by themselves with infrequent checks, and with no security, is pure unmitigated negligence and nothing else.

in your opinion...

[Benice]

What is repeated it seems ad infinitum, was that the mccanns were behaving responsibly.

They weren't.

leaving your children for extended periods by themselves with infrequent checks, and with no security, is pure unmitigated negligence and nothing else.

Not everyone shares your opinion Stephen - and that would include the thousands of other parents who - when on holiday --  also decided to leave their children fast asleep while they went for a meal etc. knowing they would be regularly checked.   As well as those relied on baby alarms to enable them to do the same as the McCann did. 

None of those parents would agree with you IMO.  How could they?

Then there are the parents of other abducted children - who all support the McCanns, . Kerry Needham, Sara Payne, Coral Jones, the Ossie parents (can't remember their name at the mo) - some of whom have met with the McCanns - and surely  - of all people  - they are (tragically) the most qualified to form an accurate impression of them.   They all agree that Madeleine was taken by a stranger and totally empathise with her parents.  Why do you completely ignore these 'experts'?

Also - did you miss this post from one of our members?

Quote from: Tootypopper on November 09, 2013, 04:59:40 PM

Hi! Mum and Dad would scrimp all year to take us on a little holiday to Butlines and what a time we all had! Mum and Dad used the listening service while they had a drink at the club and they would be heart broken if some body were to say that they abandoned us kids.

I am on the fence in this case of Madeleine but if people are saying that they abandoned their kids then they are also saying that my Mum and Dad abandoned us and I find that a bit offensive. This family did just the same as my Mum and Dad did.
UNQUOTE