Amaral say's its a "publicity stunt"

[Luz]

There is absolutely no need for a senior investigating officer to meet the family of the victim, or victim or suspect in any case. However, the senior officer is in charge of the investigation and therefore responsible for the conduct of those under him. The head of the RCMP said at a conference recently that it was a resigning matter if a subordinate broke the rules as the head is responsible for the actions of his subordinates. If not the top is always insulated from malpractice.

Do you not think that in the present case that Amaral was a little to willing to take the word of his subordinates? What investigation did he conduct? Did he look at the medical evidence or for any corroboration? It is yet another indication of the partisan nature of opinions here. Views on Amaral depend on what side you take in the McCann case.

Cipriano is a different matter that requires its own investigation to establish if torture occurred or not and not by anyone with a vested interest. It is not a stick to use to fight McCann agendas, or rather it should not be.

That bringing up the Cipriano case is not only tiring but also highly insulting. Leonor Cipriano is a confessed and convicted murderess of her own child. Furthermore, she was also tried and found a liar about the torture accusations over the PJ officers (which was a strategy designed by Aragão Correia do frame the PJ) - the Faro Court tried her, found her guilty of Lying and sentenced her to more 7 months in prison - I hope in the same prison where she was attacked by her inmates.

Why, when discussing the McCann case, do you keep talking about Leonor? Do you in any way think there is any similitude? Do you find traces in Kate McCann that are identical to those of Leonor Cipriano, the lying murderess?!

I find it very strange that you and some others insist to put side by side a psychopathic murderer and liar (duly evaluated by forensic psychiatrists and convicted in a Court of Law) and those that you pretend are as innocent as new born lambs!!!!

[Luz]

After almost 7 years you don't understand how the criminal investigative attribution of the PJ work.
It was not up to Amaral or to any PJ coordinator to evaluate the work of his colaborators, the inspectors and chief-inspectors, that is for the judge of the public ministry to decide. A coordinator simply manages the means and the distribution of tasks in order for the team to work. The contents of the work must be transmitted fully to the Investigation Judge and evaluated by him.

[jassi]

But it isn't just the McCann supporters. The [ censored word] are over- protective of Amaral too. Amaral's conduct in the Cipriano case needs to be looked at independently as does that of his subordinates. If he accepted the word of his subordinates without proper investigation, then he is culpable. There should be no tolerance of a culture of policing that supports without investigation what he was told. The complaints system that Amaral embodied here was utterly wrong. Amaral had to investigate the allegations impartially and thoroughly. He didn't do that and by not doing it he did nobody any favours least of all himself.

It is yet another reason to prevent police investigating themselves, or pretending to. If Amaral's subordinates were telling the truth and cleared themselves, or he did, who will believe it? And if they were lying , they need to be drummed out of the police and him too if he went to bat for them. Public confidence is important. Rooting out corrupt or violent police is important and so is protecting honest police from spurious accusations of malpractice. So what are the procedures for that in Portugal?

I fancy that more try to slag him off than try to protect him.
I, for one, just find it a tiresome and irrelevant distraction.

[Luz]

!You know the irony of all this is that given slightly different circumstances there could have been many on here arguing that the Amaral conviction was a miscarriage of justice.  ;)

Of course it was a miscarriage of justice. The alleged torturers were acquitted because the accuser couldn't identify them in a line up (she used a piece of paper in Court written by Aragão to say their names, but even there she couldn't identify them), and the ones that were not in contact with her were accused of ridiculous crimes like omission to report (a crime that din't happen, and falsifying evidence, that never existed). In Portugal, people that followed this case know that the accuser was beaten in prison (as it's usual for children abusers or murderers) - there was an ex-inmate of her that testified about it but was dismissed because it was not convenient for the set up of Amaral. The Ourique prison director made a terrible mistake by not putting Leonor in a secluded area away from her inmates and when she came back from her 3 days holiday she saw the mess she was in. Mr. Marinho Pinto, her close friend arranged with the help of Aragão Correia, an inventive way for her not to be subjected to a disciplinary inquest and eventual dismissal.

[Luz]

But going back to the OP, yes. All this Crimewatch arrangement is, in my opinion, more than a "publicity stunt" (all that was revealed was a mere omission and replication of what was already known) it is a diversion maneuver to divert the attention from the Lisbon Trial.


Note: I have to confess that I haven't watched it and what I am stating is only based on what I read on the papers and blogs.

[sadie]

But it isn't just the McCann supporters. The [ censored word] are over- protective of Amaral too. Amaral's conduct in the Cipriano case needs to be looked at independently as does that of his subordinates. If he accepted the word of his subordinates without proper investigation, then he is culpable. There should be no tolerance of a culture of policing that supports without investigation what he was told. The complaints system that Amaral embodied here was utterly wrong. Amaral had to investigate the allegations impartially and thoroughly. He didn't do that and by not doing it he did nobody any favours least of all himself.

It is yet another reason to prevent police investigating themselves, or pretending to. If Amaral's subordinates were telling the truth and cleared themselves, or he did, who will believe it? And if they were lying , they need to be drummed out of the police and him too if he went to bat for them. Public confidence is important. Rooting out corrupt or violent police is important and so is protecting honest police from spurious accusations of malpractice. So what are the procedures for that in Portugal?

Excellent post, Dhingra.

[Luz]

Thanks for that additional info. I guess what I was trying to say (unsuccessfully) is that those who have knives out for Amaral could be arguing for his innocence were he not to have accused the McCanns of wrong doing.

You are welcome, even though this is just a very tiny account of what happened.
Yes, I understand what you say and I believe you are absolutely right. It's a shame people cannot look at the picture objectively - I mean, they are entitled to their feelings towards the McCann, but they should also be able to look beyond that.

And I must add that I am personally much closer to the Ourique director (we have a friendly relationship for almost 25 years) than I am of Mr. Amaral or of any of the other PJ inspectors, that I don't know personally.

[jassi]

Sadie, this is all your over-active imagination again.  Very little of this is true and it's just a shining example of the Amaral-bashing nature of many McCann supporters.

And what, if anything is achieved by this anti-Amaral campaign ?

[Carana]

After almost 7 years you don't understand how the criminal investigative attribution of the PJ work.
It was not up to Amaral or to any PJ coordinator to evaluate the work of his colaborators, the inspectors and chief-inspectors, that is for the judge of the public ministry to decide. A coordinator simply manages the means and the distribution of tasks in order for the team to work. The contents of the work must be transmitted fully to the Investigation Judge and evaluated by him.

Who was the head of the investigation in Portimão then?

[Admin]

Sadie.  Please amend your last post removing speculative comments about Dr Amaral and then repost it.  This forum operates on the basis of evidence and not speculation. Thank you.

[Carana]

Back on topic, Amaral was/is highly respected in the PJ as an investigating officer. Had a great record for solving drug cases. Pretty obviously he knew what he was doing and he is someone that knows more about the case than any of us.

Snipped to address this point.

Do you have any confirmation of this?

Even John here has admitted that he didn't seem to understand certain aspects...

[Luz]

Who was the head of the investigation in Portimão then?

The Policia Judiciária is the only police force that does criminal investigation under the Public Ministry (Judicial system and not the Government) and in order to keep their independence, all their commitments are ordered and supervised by the Public Ministry. That is to say that every investigation is under the control of a judge assigned for that effect. Of course there is an hierarchy within the PJ teams, and obviously someone must be assigned a responsibility to supervise the work in the field, but in the end, every little decision has to be authorized by the judge. For instance, the attribution of the arguido status, which is a right consigned in the Legal Code, may be requested or attributed by the police, but only if the judge agrees with it.

If Amaral, as you so much wish to attribute him, was with total and full responsibility over the work of his colleagues, he would have used the phone taps because they were fundamental for the investigation, but since they had to have the authorization of the judge and he decided they were against the law, they were discarded.

The responsible for Madeleine McCann's case was Judge Pedro Frias.

[sadie]

Sadie.  Please amend your last post removing speculative comments about Dr Amaral and then repost it.  This forum operates on the basis of evidence and not speculation. Thank you.

Seems you have wiped my whole post?  I thought that out carefully and I wonder why you didn't just delete any offending words.

That is what you would do with an anti post ... but my whole post gone !!! 

Forgot. 
It is OK to say anything to destroy the Mccanns, and put the boot in

BUT Amaral has to be revered.  It is NOT allowed to point out HIS failings


On this forum:  Different rules for the [ censored word] to the pros.  NOT a level playing field.

[Admin]

Seems you have wiped my whole post?  I thought that out carefully and I wonder why you didn't just delete any offending words.

That is what you would do with an anti post ... but my whole post gone !!! 

Forgot. 
It is OK to say anything to destroy the Mccanns, and put the boot in

BUT Amaral has to be revered.  It is NOT allowed to point out HIS failings


On this forum:  Different rules for the [ censored word] to the pros.  NOT a level playing field.

Unfortunately one of the mods deleted it as it was being editing by myself.  This should not have happened so will be reporting the obvious inadequacy to the software developer.

Your criticism is both wrong and unmerited.  Please repost without speculating.

[Luz]

Try reading the post before replying according to your pre-determined agenda Luz. I said the Cipriano case is NOT a stick for McCann supporters to beat Amaral with.

I am really sorry if I misinterpreted you. I guess I reacted inadvertently without giving your message the attention it deserved.

I am sorry.

Not to excuse myself, because it was really bad from me to respond to your post in such manner, but I was responding to a sequence of previous posts...I can only apologize to you.