Author Topic: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?  (Read 110986 times)

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Offline VIXTE

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #225 on: November 13, 2013, 01:58:17 AM »
They need to identify Smithman to crack the case. Everything will become crystal clear when that happens. Everything connects.

lets hope they already have him.. it has been reported he was named to SY after the CW..

Offline pegasus

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #226 on: November 13, 2013, 01:06:47 PM »
There is no evidence inside the apartment that any intruder ever set foot inside.
So I think the simplest explanation for an increase in the angle of opening of a  bedroom door, is simply that a child was awakened by a noise, and pulled the door wider open to go out of the bedroom.

Offline colombosstogey

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #227 on: November 13, 2013, 02:14:36 PM »
The door to the childrens room.

Which way do you think the abductor went in. I think the front door.

My rationale for this is because the back/side entrance is too exposed and not only that has steep stairs and a childs stair gate on the top.

I keep being told that the patio door is unlocked and the perb would no this.

Question. How? How would an abductor know this.

The front door initially it was said there was a special lock on it. Would that lock not have been changed though when the apartment was put out for rent? The reason why I ask is the key was supposed to be a specialist key and very difficult to get a copy.

WOULD someone renting out an apartment not change the lock to a simple yale, and pass out keys, housekeeping and reception (OC for fire purposes) and probably 2 for clients.

OK just assuming it is the front door, how would someone get a key?

IS the abductor a planner or simply snatcher?

Snatcher they would have had no idea about the doors being locked or unlocked so doesnt make sense.

Planner? OK well how did they plan. Who would be in a position to plan something and get information?

They would need to know the patio door was unlocked
They would need to know the families routine
They would need to know where the children were located inside the apartment

Who would know that and who would be privvy to keys?

Friends
Creche workers
Maid
maintenance man
Restaurant staff

Anyone else?

Did the abductor have a car? If so where would it be kept?

It doesnt appear that anyone was seen hanging about in the evening only during the day in PDL, so who does that leave?

Friends
Restaurant staff

Anyone Else?

IF I was going to take the child, i would take holdall, a something to sedate the child. What would I use? Any thoughts on this. The only thing really that is instaneous is Chloroform which is hard to get hold of. Were any of the suspects checked to see if they had bought any or had their computers checked for this?

What else could be used. I dont honestly think they would leave it to chance and not sedate.

OK go in front door, pass kitchen on the left into the sitting area of the apartment on the right is 3 doors were they open or closed?

We are led to believe that at least the childrens was closed, assume the other bedroom was too, how did the abductor know which room to go to first? Were both doors left open?

LIGHT. There is a piece by KMCC which says when she went in at 10pm and went into the room it was dark and she could only just see the bed ....so i assume the apartment didnt really have a main light left on...so the abductor would need a torch.

When the abductor then opened the childrens door what did they see?

They would have dimly seen two largish cot beds in the middle of the room, beyond that what looks like a bed and a window and a shutter.

Then if they turned slightly they would have seen another bed with possibly somoeone in it.

How did they know it was Maddy?

Was the child only taken because it was the easy option. Taking a child from out of those travel cots is hard work and you would not know what sex the children were in there....

So was Maddy not targeted just taken......

To take the child would be simple. Sedate, put in holdall, carry out go back to front door, quietly just check to see or hear if anyone is coming and go off into the night.

Why then would you open the window or the shutter. It makes no sense.

Why did Gerry worry about the bedroom doing being slightly open why mention it? It was mentioned several times even by Kate.

The timing of the door being left open seemed to following the sighting of JT.

We now know this is a bogus sighting.

So when did the abductor strike?

I think 9.40. IF they were checking they would know the family would be well into their meal and chatting, the ideal time would be 9.40.

I reckon it would take less then 6 minutes.

I say use a holdall and sedate, because it would be so easy to wake the child up by lifting etc.

The quieter you are the less likely of waking up the children.

I have done this in my head so many times....

FOR me for the abduction to work so well I am sure someone working in the complex would be implicated....

or someone who knew the MCCANNS not necessarily friends, but maybe friends of a friends etc...

The timing is crucial.

Anyway that is my points.

I do think the child could have been taken but with a lot of planning.

Any thoughts or add ons?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #228 on: November 13, 2013, 03:14:43 PM »
You're correct an abductor would use the front door as it was the most hidden and as you say he wouldn't necessarily know that the back patio door was open unless he was watching. But that doesn't explain why the window was opened? An abductor would be in and out of the door not squeezing past two cots, bed and chair and opening windows and shutters.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 03:24:12 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline colombosstogey

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #229 on: November 13, 2013, 03:22:22 PM »
You're correct an abductor would use the front door as it was the most hidden and as you say he wouldn't necessarily know that the back patio door was open unless he was watching. But that doesn't explain why the window was opened? An abductor would be in and out of the door not squeezing past two cots, bed and chair and opening windows and shutters.

Yes I agree not only that the room wasnt very light, and it would also mean trying to get past the cots, and then stand on a BED to get out.

Do we know for definiate the window and shutter was open? I have read several things which said it wasnt.

The GNR who went to the apartment said there was no forcible entry so surely that would negate a shutter and window being opened as it would be an obvious entry wouldnt it or exit.

I do find the window and shutter confusing too many different statements about it.

I really do believe the child could have been taken no doubt, but its just a few things that dont add up.


Offline pathfinder73

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #230 on: November 13, 2013, 03:24:42 PM »
Kate knew straight away that Madeleine had been abducted because of the open window.

The two main discrepancies in an abduction taking place:

1. Explaining why the Window and Shutters were opened when no evidence was found for it being used to enter or depart.

2. Explaining the moving door.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 03:27:40 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #231 on: November 13, 2013, 03:33:56 PM »
Kate knew straight away that Madeleine had been abducted because of the open window.

The two main discrepancies in an abduction taking place:

1. Explaining why the Window and Shutters were opened when no evidence was found for it being used to enter or depart.

2. Explaining the moving door.

1. One silly reason given was to let chloroform out...err, why?

2. The moving door is not a problem if they did leave the patio doors open...any wind could explain that...


Offline jassi

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #232 on: November 13, 2013, 03:36:32 PM »
1. One silly reason given was to let chloroform out...err, why?

2. The moving door is not a problem if they did leave the patio doors open...any wind could explain that...

Was the patio door actually  open, or merely unlocked ?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #233 on: November 13, 2013, 03:38:17 PM »
Was the patio door actually  open, or merely unlocked ?

I meant when they opened it to go inside and do their checks.....Sorry
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 03:41:40 PM by Redblossom »

Offline pegasus

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #234 on: November 13, 2013, 03:56:58 PM »
Kate knew straight away that Madeleine had been abducted because of the open window.

The two main discrepancies in an abduction taking place:

1. Explaining why the Window and Shutters were opened when no evidence was found for it being used to enter or depart.

2. Explaining the moving door.

What if a burglar thinks (by the low light inside and the absence of noise) that everyone is out. He opens the shutter and window from outside. The noise wakes a child. Note that burglar has not entered. Burglar runs away scared, he does not ever set foot inside.
Child opens bedroom door and goes into lounge. I think this sequence of events would explain the discrepancies listed.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 04:02:35 PM by pegasus »

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #235 on: November 13, 2013, 03:59:29 PM »

 The moving door is not a problem if they did leave the patio doors open...any wind could explain that...
The wind was blowing from North and the curtains of the door-widow were drawn.
The door might have been moved by a word. As the shutters and window have been open.

Offline colombosstogey

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #236 on: November 13, 2013, 04:06:08 PM »
1. One silly reason given was to let chloroform out...err, why?

2. The moving door is not a problem if they did leave the patio doors open...any wind could explain that...

Yes i thought that fleetingly just to understand WHY. Mind you Chloroform does leave a heavy sickly smell....

Yes the door to the bedroom would have probably shut the bedroom door if it was openend when going in for check, but I dont think the child had gone when Oldfield checked, i think if she did it was AFTER he checked so the door would not have mattered.

Its GM saying about the door why? Why put so much importance to it at 9.10.....

Also if you really look inside the room isnt that the door against the wardrobe OR is it the wardrobe door, if so how did the door to the bedroom open for someone to hide behind it. Also one of the larger travel cots against it too.......it wasnt moved so I assume no one hid in there.

I found this on a site called Textusa sure they wont mind me using it, but it does show the route the abductor would have gone if we are to assume they went in the front and out the window, it really makes no sense whatsover.....

http://www.textusa.blogspot.pt/2012/05/do-ask-yourself.html

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #237 on: November 13, 2013, 05:14:19 PM »
I've heard some claim the window was a red herring but to take that unnecessary risk would have been suicide.

If Madeleine left the apartment after 8.30pm then a good place to start would be by looking for any one person who was away from the tapas bar when the rest of the group were there. Any one person who was missing out of the 9 in the tapas bar would be a good place to start and examine their testimony.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 05:24:43 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline VIXTE

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #238 on: November 13, 2013, 06:41:06 PM »
You're correct an abductor would use the front door as it was the most hidden and as you say he wouldn't necessarily know that the back patio door was open unless he was watching. But that doesn't explain why the window was opened? An abductor would be in and out of the door not squeezing past two cots, bed and chair and opening windows and shutters.

Maybe he/she had nothing to put the child in and was passed something through the window by an accomplice, like a children stroller, a bag etc

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?
« Reply #239 on: April 12, 2014, 02:50:48 AM »
What about the moving door? If you work that out you will solve it IMO.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 02:40:59 PM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.