Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?

[sadie]

My post was not exclusively non-abduction at all, it covers all theories IMO. 
Thanks for your example (person carries child out front door).
That BTW would be included in number 3 in my list, because to get from the bedroom to the front door he/she  would first carry her from the bedroom through the internal doorway into another room (the open-plan livingarea/hallway)?  And from there out the front door.
So presumably in your proposal the bedroom door angle would be increased by that person when he/she enters the bedroom via the bedroom door.

Maybe, but maybe by Johns reasonable explanation or by my more technical explanation above.

We just dont know, do we?

Bedtime calls.  Nigh night

[pegasus]

... the closer the door was to being shut, the greater the turning moment on it. 
The closer it was to be fully open the less likely it would be to slam shut. 
Hence as Kate closed it the turning moment increased and combined with a gust the door tried to slam shut.

Agreed.
This witness is telling the truth IMO.

[icabodcrane]

That bedroom door would only have slammed shut if another door was open somewhere

Kate says she she closed the patio door when she came into the apartment 

No patio door open  ...  no draught  ...  no bedroom door slamming shut 

It's not  'technical'   ...  it's common sense 

[sadie]

That bedroom door would only have slammed shut if another door was open somewhere

Kate says she she closed the patio door when she came into the apartment 

No patio door open  ...  no draught  ...  no bedroom door slamming shut 

It's not  'technical'   ...  it's common sense

Oh, OK.  Are you an engineer, Icabod? 

several things:
High winds can cause differences in pressures

Direct sudden forces on doors can produce a sudden movement.

Anyway:
Do you know if any of the very high windows over the pavement were slightly open? 

I  dont, but it was warm enough that day for sunbathing.

... even if cooler many people like fresh air in their homes.

[pegasus]

That bedroom door would only have slammed shut if another door was open somewhere

Kate says she she closed the patio door when she came into the apartment 

No patio door open  ...  no draught  ...  no bedroom door slamming shut 

It's not  'technical'   ...  it's common sense

Even if the rest of the apartment is an airtight container, a gust of wind outside the open bedroom window will alter the air pressure inside the bedroom.
Then air will flow between the bedroom, and the rest of the apartment, until their air pressures become the same.
When I inflate my scooter tyres, there's hopefully no second hole for the air to exit from, but it seems to work, air flows through the valve.

[icabodcrane]

Oh, OK.  Are you an engineer, Icabod? 

several things:
High winds can cause differences in pressures

Direct sudden forces on doors can produce a sudden movement.

Anyway:
Do you know if any of the very high windows over the pavement were slightly open? 

I  dont, but it was warm enough that day for sunbathing.

... even if cooler many people like fresh air in their homes.

I'll tell you what I  know  sadie  ...   without being an  'engineer'

When we were kids we had  open fires in the downstairs rooms 

If the wind was blowing in a certain direction then whenever the front door was opened it would  'blow-back'   ...   smoke and soot

But when the door was shut  ...  no  'blow-back'   

You  see,  there was no  'rush'  of wind  unless  the front door was open

It was that simple


If there was no other door open in apartment five A that night,   then that bedroom door would  not  have slammed shut

 

[sadie]

I'll tell you what I  know  sadie  ...   without being an  'engineer'

When we were kids we had  open fires in the downstairs rooms 

If the wind was blowing in a certain direction then whenever the front door was opened it would  'blow-back'   ...   smoke and soot

But when the door was shut  ...  no  'blow-back'   

You  see,  there was no  'rush'  of wind  unless  the front door was open

It was that simple


If there was no other door open in apartment five A that night,   then that bedroom door would  not  have slammed shut

 

Your opinion.  The door did not slam as far as I am aware but it suddenly moved.  I am not going thru the technical stuff all again.

BUT do YOU KNOW if a high level roadside window was open?

Cos I dont.

And the Mccanns seem the fresh air sort to me.  Now that would cause a mighty force given a 20 mph gust..


I am tired.  Nigh night

[pegasus]

The valve in your bicycle tire or car tire is like a door.
Apply a higher pressure to to the outside of the valve than the inside, and the valve will open, and air will flow through it.
When the pressure difference is the other way round, air flowing out of the valve exerts a force on the slightly ajar valve. and slams it shut.
If it didn't slam shut, everyone would be riding around on flat tires.
(That bedroom door is installed the opposite way round to a tire valve, but the analogy is good).

edited to correct a technical thing

[John]

Opening any door or window when there is a breeze blowing will have an effect on the interior.  This effect can range from curtains billowing to doors creaking or moving.

There is no way we here can determine what happened in 5a that evening, that requires experimentation on an evening with almost identical wind speed and wind direction.

Opening the external patio door could very well have caused the kids bedroom door to open slightly and especially so if the wind direction was from the south.

[pathfinder73]

Matt Oldfield Rog

"When we were actually running along the beach and along the err and along the front doing the, the search and I don’t recall it being err particularly windy but as I think we said but last time it was windy enough for us to sail in the afternoon but that didn’t necessarily translate it to have been windy in the evening."

4078 "So you weren't, just to clarify what you have said, you weren't conscious of any draught?"

Reply "Yeah".

4078 "The curtains were drawn and weren't blowing around?"

Reply "Yeah".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matt didn't notice any draught so it's unlikely the door position changed from ajar to half-open because of the wind. And no curtains blowing so the window was closed at 9.30.

[John]

That sort of puts the kibosh on the Tanner sighting at 9.15pm then.  Given that nobody checked the children between 9.30pm and 10.00pm that would appear to be the 'window' of opportunity which was taken by the alleged abductor.

Add to this the fact that the only GNR patrol was conveniently miles away at Odiáxere following up a report, then this afforded the perpetrators a unique opportunity to get well away.

On the point made by Matt about the wind, coastal breezes are unpredictable.  One moment it could be calm and the next  quite breezy.  There just isn't any way of knowing for sure.

I don't subscribe to the abductor being in the apartment theory suggested by Gerry, I just don't believe they would take that risk.

[sadie]

That sort of puts the kibosh on the Tanner sighting at 9.15pm then.  Given that nobody checked the children between 9.30pm and 10.00pm that would appear to be the 'window' of opportunity which was taken by the alleged abductor.

Sorry, I dont agree John.  Given knowledge of the apartment and a key, the whole abduction within the apartment could have been achieved in under a minute.  I had an accident, am a blue badge holder and these days not very fast on my feet.  With the distances involved and a slick operation, even these days,  I could have achieved the whole abduction (in the apartment) in a minute, including opening the window and blind. 
Try it yourself, the distances are very small.

The best time to strike would have been immediately after an check.  That is what appears to have happened.  Jane Tanners sighting was within a 2 or 3 minutes(ish) of Gerry leaving after his check.  Obviously the watcher could see that Gerry had left the apartment, but was unable to see that Gerry was still outside with Jez.

If I am right and there was a watcher, then that very fact limits the places where the watcher viewed from. imo

Add to this the fact that the only GNR patrol was conveniently miles away at Odiáxere following up a report, then this afforded the perpetrators a unique opportunity to get well away.

Do you think the abductors could have arranged for something to happen at Oxiadere, to get the GNR away from the scene?
 

On the point made by Matt about the wind, coastal breezes are unpredictable.  One moment it could be calm and the next  quite breezy.  There just isn't any way of knowing for sure.

Agreed.  That would be particularly so on the Atlantic Coast, I think.  And PdL was essentially on the Atlantic coast

I don't subscribe to the abductor being in the apartment theory suggested by Gerry, I just don't believe they would take that risk.

I think it unlikely too, cos I believe that the to-ing and fro-ing from the restaurant was being monitored.  There would only be someone in there had Gerry come back unexpectedly and the man within the apartment was trapped. 
Maybe he had been in and Gerry could unconsciously sense that?   Smell?
We dont know.

[pathfinder73]

Sorry, I dont agree John.  Given knowledge of the apartment and a key, the whole abduction within the apartment could have been achieved in under a minute.  I had an accident, am a blue badge holder and these days not very fast on my feet.  With the distances involved and a slick operation, even these days,  I could have achieved the whole abduction (in the apartment) in a minute, including opening the window and blind. 
Try it yourself, the distances are very small.

The best time to strike would have been immediately after an check.  That is what appears to have happened.  Jane Tanners sighting was within a 2 or 3 minutes(ish) of Gerry leaving after his check.  Obviously the watcher could see that Gerry had left the apartment, but was unable to see that Gerry was still outside with Jez.

If I am right and there was a watcher, then that very fact limits the places where the watcher viewed from. imo
Do you think the abductors could have arranged for something to happen at Oxiadere, to get the GNR away from the scene?
 Agreed.  That would be particularly so on the Atlantic Coast, I think.  And PdL was essentially on the Atlantic coast
I think it unlikely too, cos I believe that the to-ing and fro-ing from the restaurant was being monitored.  There would only be someone in there had Gerry come back unexpectedly and the man within the apartment was trapped. 
Maybe he had been in and Gerry could unconsciously sense that?   Smell?
We dont know.

If the window was closed at 9.30 then nobody including Tannerman had opened it before 9.30. Tannerman couldn't have exited the unlocked patio side so the only possible option was exiting via the front door.  The window had to be opened sometime after Matt checked and before Kate arrived which would tie in with the later sighting of Smithman and the child he was carrying fitting Madeleine's description. SY have wisely got shut of Tannerman and are after the real one Smithman. That's the reason the PJ accused Matt because they thought he was the only person who could have moved the door twice (that's the way I would see it and also why he was checking on other kids). Matt moved the door the first time before Gerry checked when he left the tapas bar just before 9 and the second time on his check he moved the door to wide open the way Kate found it. Another option is the door didn't move and if that was the case then there's only one answer and solving the door shows you the way.

[John]

Sorry, I dont agree John.  Given knowledge of the apartment and a key, the whole abduction within the apartment could have been achieved in under a minute.  I had an accident, am a blue badge holder and these days not very fast on my feet.  With the distances involved and a slick operation, even these days,  I could have achieved the whole abduction (in the apartment) in a minute, including opening the window and blind. 
Try it yourself, the distances are very small.

The best time to strike would have been immediately after an check.  That is what appears to have happened.  Jane Tanners sighting was within a 2 or 3 minutes(ish) of Gerry leaving after his check.  Obviously the watcher could see that Gerry had left the apartment, but was unable to see that Gerry was still outside with Jez.

If I am right and there was a watcher, then that very fact limits the places where the watcher viewed from. imo

Had the shutter been fully up and the window wide open around 9.30pm then Matt would have noticed.  For any prior to 9.30pm abduction to work Matt"s statements must be rubbished.

Tanners sighting is irrelevant imo.

[John]

Do you think the abductors could have arranged for something to happen at Oxiadere, to get the GNR away from the scene?

Most definitely, it was just too coincidental that the only police patrol was away 20 miles in the opposite direction when Madeleine disappeared.  If there was an abduction then it was very well planned and executed.