Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?

[pathfinder73]

OK, so on page one line one of your theory of that mealtime, which room was the child in IYO when the parents left for meal?

From the dog alerts there's the possibility that a deceased child was not in bed. If the child was not in bed then the door didn't move and that's why Matt too amazingly found it half-open. Unless an abductor has a habit of leaving doors exactly half-open which is extremely doubtful.

[pegasus]

From the dog alerts there's the possibility that a deceased child who hasn't been seen since that night was not in bed. If the child was not in bed then the door didn't move and that's the reason why Matt too amazingly found it exactly half-open. Unless an abductor has a habit of leaving doors exactly half-open which is extremely doubtful.

OK so does your theory say definitely in 5A at 19.30?

[pegasus]

... 5A until just after 9 ...

So as I understand your theory says the situation at 19.30 is: in the apartment, but without knowing which room?

[pathfinder73]

My theory all connects with the discrepancies in the statements and from the dog alerts. Everything needs to connect. How did the door move 3 times? Why wasn't the open window used? What I do know is this case can be worked out but hard to prove. I know that Smithman needs to be positively identified to have any chance of solving this case. And they are tracking him at present.

[pegasus]

Child opens bedroom's slightly ajar door wider and walks or runs into another room.

[pathfinder73]

A shelf is signalled, a pile was on it, but the pile is of no importance?

That pile of clothes is not the source of the cadaver alerts. Was that pile of clothes behind the sofa?

Child opens bedroom's slightly ajar door wider and walks or runs into another room.

That doesn't explain the cadaver alerts. His hypothesis doesn't connect if the child fell from the sofa and tragically died at 9.10. So that would mean Kate found her before she raised the alarm. How could she hide the body in 5A without it being discovered? She wasn't gone long according to the others except for Gerry's over 10 minutes gone so that means it was now 10:15 when the alarm was raised >@@(*&) But maybe he got confused with his own check for being that long away. The GNR arrived at 11pm and were searching the apartment. The routine change and the contradictions about that visit connect with the cadaver alerts.

[Mr Moderator]

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[pathfinder73]

Gerry: Can I, can I just say I think the worst thing about you know, the fact that many people have blamed us and vilified us and and with hindsight you know it was clearly a mistake with hindsight but the worst thing for me about that is there's an abductor out there and that person stole our child and went into an apartment and took a child and he's anonymous and blameless.

 Oprah: You believe it was a he?

 Gerry: Almost certainly a male almost certainly

 Oprah: And is that because one of your friends Jane...

 Gerry and Kate: Tanner

 Oprah: ...had seen was err explain to me because I had read that she was coming out of her villa at nine fifteen. So let's go back to that night if you don't mind.

 Gerry: Yeah

 Oprah: Let's go back to the night. Nine oh-five, you all are at dinner and you made the-the-the check at nine so you're checking every half hour.

 Gerry: It was actually nine o'clock while the whole group were in the restaurant and one of our friend's Matt already went up and checked his err daughter and as he came back I went up to check on Madeleine [hesitation] and the twins and I went into the apartment and err really just checking the crying and the door...

 Oprah: Checking to see if there was any crying

 Gerry: Yeah that was it and the door was erm open more, I'd, I'd left it just ajar about 5 degrees and we checked them before we left and they were sound asleep

Oprah: Which door are you talking about?

Gerry: This is the bedroom door, to err their room, the three children were in the same room so I actually stepped into the room and the twins were sound asleep and Madeleine was lying in her bed exactly where she was when I left, Cuddle Cat up beside her head on her blanket and err and I closed the door and went to...

 Oprah: And this is about nine-oh-five?

 Gerry: Just yeah, so I went outside and I was outside the apartment and I met err one of the other guests and he was coming the other way with his kid and I actually crossed the road to erm to chat to him and we were sort of chatting for about five minutes and during that, Jane went to check on her children and it was at that point she was just passed us going up to the corner and she saw a man carrying a young girl with almo.. she described independently the pyjamas that Madeleine had on and she didn't see the child's face she didn't you know she saw me there she'd seen that I'd just been in the apartment and so she at the time she thought it was something odd but it didn't raise enough alarm bells to challenge the person or anything

 Kate: The child was barefoot and bare armed and he had a quite heavy jacket on so I think it was one of those things that just seemed a little bit odd but obviously it's not until later on that you realise.

 Oprah: So this is the sketch of that person that err your friend Jane err remembers seeing but Jane, Jane didn't say anything when she came back to the table, yeah, because she saw you standing there.

 Gerry: Yeah yeah

 Oprah: So erm you discovered that Madeleine was missing so you checked it about 9:05 another friend sees this man at 9:15 and you went back to check again at...

 Kate: Well actually at 9:30 I stood up to go and check on Madeleine, because it was my turn. And at the same time Matt our friend stood up and we both started walking and he said well I'm going to check on G***e they were the next apartment to us he said "I'll check on Madeleine" and he hesitated a bit and then he said "no, I'll check" so he went to check at half nine came back said fine everything's fine so I then went at 10 o'clock the next check erm...

 Oprah: Did he see her in the bed at 9:30?

 Kate: No he just went in and listened and there was no crying

 Oprah: So he came back and said everything's fine cause you all everybody's just checking to see if there's crying and there's no crying so everything's fine and so then you went at ten.

 Kate: I went at ten and I went into the apartment and there was no crying I stopped and there was no crying. And then I just noticed that the door was quite open

Oprah: Which door?

 Kate: Their bedroom door sorry, and we usually have the door as Gerry said sort of not closed but ajar just so that a little bit of light gets in and it's not too dark in the room so I thought oh Matt must have gone in and left the door open

 Oprah: same thing he thought

Kate: Yeah, so I thought well I'll just close it over again, and as I went to close it over it slammed shut and I thought and it was like sort of you know a draught had caused it to shut so I turned behind me and I thought are the patio doors open and they were closed and I thought well that's strange so then I opened the door thinking I'll open it ajar a bit again and that was when I kind of looked into the room and when I just looked and it was quite dark and I was just looking and looking at Madeleine's bed and I was thinking is that her that I was looking for why isn't Madeleine there? And then in the end I walked over and thought oh, she's not in bed and then I thought maybe she's wandered through to our bed and that's why the door's open so I went through to our bedroom and she wasn't there and then I kind of see then I'm starting to panic a bit and I ran back into their room and literally as I went back into their room the curtains that were drawn over just "whoooosh" flew open and that's when I saw that the shutter was right up and the window was pushed right open. And that was when I just knew that erm someone had taken her. So I, I mean I ran to the window and I didn't know what I thought was going to see but I ran to the window and then I quickly hmm quickly looked through the wardrobes I had I suppose this temporary thought she was cowering in a wardrobe or something anyway she wasn't there and I just ran out and soon as...

 Oprah: was she in a closet, in a closet?

 Kate: Yeah just in case, just in case she's hiding or something I don't know and then I just went flying out the backdoor and erm ran to Gerry and just as soon as I saw the table where they were sitting I just started shouting "someone's taken her, Madeleine's gone" you know and erm that's how it all started really but erm [hyperventilates]

 Oprah: Why did you feel immediately, I'd heard that you'd said "They've taken her, they've taken her"

 Kate: nnnn....I didn't say that I said, said "somebody's taken her Madeleine's gone". Well from the way I found the room it was obvious because a child could not open those shutters and the window

 Oprah: uh huh

 Kate: erm so it was obvious to me

 Gerry: You know when she came back and she she shouted "someone's taken her" and there was just disbelief

 Kate: Taken her that's fine they all jumped up and they were saying if Kate don't worry she's fine, she's fine she'll be there she'll be there and I said she's gone, she's - tak, somebody's taken her you know it was just like...

 Gerry: And the way the room was you know.

 Kate: It was just like disbelief you know...

 Gerry: The way that window was and the shutter up and the window open there was no way Madeleine could have done that err at that age and err it was just terrifying.

[pegasus]

Provisional timeline for door: 1930 closed to ajar, 2105-2125 opened to go on foot to another room, JIMO

[pathfinder73]

Gerry said they checked and they were all asleep before they left at 8:30. He came back half hour later and their still asleep in exactly the same position. It is obvious Madeleine hasn't woken up and moved the door so who moved the door before 9?

[pegasus]

Gerry said they checked and they were all asleep before they left at 8:30. He came back half hour later and their still asleep in exactly the same position. It is obvious Madeleine hasn't woken up and moved the door so who moved the door before 9?

20.30 check was not visual IMO

[Benice]

Gerry said they checked and they were all asleep before they left at 8:30. He came back half hour later and their still asleep in exactly the same position. It is obvious Madeleine hasn't woken up and moved the door so who moved the door before 9?

Maybe the change in air pressure due to the breeze moved the door when Kate and Gerry left the apartment to go to dinner.   Or failing that  - maybe the door moved (for the same reason) when Gerry opened and closed the patio door at 9.05 when he entered 5A.  Or maybe the adbuctor was in the apartment at that time?    Who can possibly say?

[pegasus]

20.35pm check was non-visual
 "listening from the outside ... as there was complete silence ... did not even enter ..." GM 10 May 2007

[icabodcrane]

Maybe the change in air pressure due to the breeze moved the door when Kate and Gerry left the apartment to go to dinner.   Or failing that  - maybe the door moved (for the same reason) when Gerry opened and closed the patio door at 9.05 when he entered 5A.  Or maybe the adbuctor was in the apartment at that time?    Who can possibly say?

Who can possibly say  ? 

Scotland Yard,  one would hope   ...  three years and seven million pounds later

[pathfinder73]

20.35pm check was non-visual
 "listening from the outside ... as there was complete silence ... did not even enter ..." GM 10 May 2007

Madeleine is ruled out as moving the door. Everyone can see it wasn't her. She hadn't woken up before 9pm. So we are left with 3 realistic possibilities:

1. Abductor moved it

2. One of their friends moved it

3. The door never moved

Options 1 & 2 would probably be through unlocked patio door as entry. If it's number 3 then the apartment was locked including the patio door and Gerry did use his key to enter as he said in his first statement because there was possibly something inside 5A that he wanted nobody to find.