Praia Da Luz Church

[jassi]

The top photo is taken after Madeleine vanished.  GM, Wristbands.

Same day, both with wristbands.

I pointed this out earlier today, but my post has been deleted for some reason best known to the mods.

[sadie]

Thanks Sadie. I found this high tide image dated 16 April 2011.

Oh, well done !  As you can see, at high tide, there are no sands where your photos show.

Also at the western end of your image, it is high tide and the little cove shows no beach.  At low tide there is a beach .  At high tide, no beach, none.

When I climbed down the steps to that little cove, there was no beach and the waves were lapping the top of the rocks.  A perfect smugglers cove, cos at high tide a small boat could go right into the cave/tunnel to unload completely out of sight.  I wonder where the cave / tunnel came out?  Under a building?

[pathfinder73]

Oh, well done !  As you can see, at high tide, there are no sands where your photos show.

Also at the western end of your image, it is high tide and the little cove shows no beach.  At low tide there is a beach .  At high tide, no beach, none.

When I climbed down the steps to that little cove, there was no beach and the waves were lapping the top of the rocks.  A perfect smugglers cove, cos at high tide a small boat could go right into the cave/tunnel to unload completely out of sight.  I wonder where the cave / tunnel came out?  Under a building?

I never said the body was buried under sand. I said it could possibly be temporarily hidden under a rock in the dark.

[pegasus]

A concealment in a cavity in the floor of a church in Scotland remained undiscovered for 5 days.
A concealment in an attic space of a church in Italy remained undiscovered for 17 years.

[sadie]

A concealment in a cavity in the floor of a church in Scotland remained undiscovered for 5 days.
A concealment in an attic space of a church in Italy remained undiscovered for 17 years.

So ?

[pegasus]

So ?

I don't think anyone or anything was hidden in the church in this case.
However because some peeps are discussing the church, in the context of a missing person, I pointed out two cases.

For me, the interesting one is the Elisa Claps case in Potenza, not because it involved a church building, that is irrelevant, but simply because it is another strong example where police when first alerted (approx 12th September 1993) searched everywhere thoroughly except the very building where the missing person was last seen. And so it went unsolved for 17 years.

[sadie]

I don't think anyone or anything was hidden in the church in this case.
However because some peeps are discussing the church, in the context of a missing person, I pointed out two cases.

For me, the interesting one is the Elisa Claps case in Potenza, not because it involved a church building, that is irrelevant, but simply because it is another strong example where police when first alerted (approx 12th September 1993) searched everywhere thoroughly except the very building where the missing person was last seen. And so it went unsolved for 17 years.

Well there aint much of a church to search there.  I only looked in the door IIRC, but it was tiny.

[faithlilly]

Well there aint much of a church to search there.  I only looked in the door IIRC, but it was tiny.

I stepped inside and while not huge the church is certainly not tiny.

[pathfinder73]

I stepped inside and while not huge the church is certainly not tiny.

The body wasn't in the church on the 3 May. It's possible to get a key and later be moved there but to stay there?

[pegasus]

The body wasn't in the church on the 3 May. It's possible to get a key and later be moved there but to stay there?

Well searching is easy if one drops all preconceptions and follows strictly the "check all physical spaces no matter how absolutely unlikely" method. I don't think anything or anyone was ever hidden in the church (if so just peeking inside and saying oh it's tiny would not be enough, one would need to check every unlikely space, like the top of the tower for example).
As I said I think the church is irrelevant, but here is a question, did anyone apply the strict "physical spaces" method to the apartment that night? "If a space exists, check it". I think no-one did.

[pathfinder73]

Well searching is easy if one drops all preconceptions and follows strictly the "check all physical spaces no matter how absolutely unlikely" method. I don't think anything or anyone was ever hidden in the church (if so just peeking inside and saying oh it's tiny would not be enough, one would need to check every unlikely space, like the top of the tower for example).
As I said I think the church is irrelevant, but here is a question, did anyone apply the strict "physical spaces" method to the apartment that night? "If a space exists, check it". I think no-one did.

Eddie would have alerted if the body was hidden under the floor. It wasn't under those tiles.

[pegasus]

Eddie would have alerted if the body was hidden under the floor. It wasn't under those tiles.

I was using the church (even though I think it's irrelevant) as an illustration of the places people don't look, because they have working hypotheses (AKA illogical assumptions). So when peeps look at the church the think immediately of the floor and the possibility of tunnels. But few think of the opposite, the top of the tower above the bell. Back to the relevant place, the apartment, how many searchers (pre-GNR, or GNR, or PJ) state specifically by furniture item name that they looked behind that sofa? Or that they actually looked under the pile of clothes, or inside the bag, or even opened the little doors at the top of the of south bedroom cupboards? None.

[sadie]

I stepped inside and while not huge the church is certainly not tiny.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id66.html

The neighbourhood: Praia da Luz was originally a small fishing village with little white fishermen's cottages and cobbled streets. It has expanded considerably since the 1960s and is now a sprawl of villas and apartments. It is adjacent to the very picturesque beach of Praia da Luz, a golden sandy beach with deep orange cliffs on either side leading to an azure calm sea. There is a promenade complete with palm trees and benches backed by a cluster of cafes, bars and restaurants. Besides being a holiday resort, Praia da Luz is also home to many ex-pats from the UK, Scandinavia and Germany. The village has an air of tranquility and contentment, but it perhaps becomes livelier at the height of the holiday season in July and August. Opposite the church is the Restaurante da Fortaleza, which is next to a 500 year old fortress perched above the rocks.


How full was the building?
It was a small church but was almost completely full – I would say there were about 100 people.



There is a photo of the altar which is very impressive.  That appears to be in another room opening up into the main church

The interior could not have been lit when I looked in, because the impressive altar never registered .  It was pretty dark in there.  Few and tiny windows.  As you will see after the attacks in Medieval times The church was strengthened with protective walls, so at least 3 feet thick, maybe 5 feet thick?  Dunno


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praia_da_Luz


Demographically, the older parish of Luz was a small centre. By the 18th century, following the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, the region was decimated, and many of its residents abandoned the region. The development of the region only began in the second half of the 19th century. The census of 1893 indicated a population of fewer than 1,712 inhabitants.



Religious[edit]
Church of Nossa Senhora da Luz (Portuguese: Igreja da Nossa Senhora da Luz). Dedicated to Our Lady of the Light, this medieval church was built around 1521, and was routinely sacked in the 15th and 16th centuries, resulting in the construction of protective walls and defences.

During the 1755 Lisbon earthquake it was badly damaged, and its restoration (1874) was funded by local contributions. In the 20th century, two events (a violent storm and the 1969 earthquake) caused similar damage to the church body.

So here we have a church built centuries ago to cater for the needs of small Praia da Luz.  This had to have its structure beefed up to cope with attacks in Medieval times.  In such an exposed position it is likely that such a structure would have had substantial walls anyway (3 feet thick?).  So probably a good deal thicker now

Before you start shouting about 3 feet thick, this church was in an exposed position, subject to Atlantic type winds, it was a public building, a church, which almost invariably would have far thicker walls than most buildings.  My own home, an 18th Century stone built structure, had walls thicker than 2 feet and that was not in an exposed area, neither was it a prestigeous public building.

At Luz we have a very small [parish] church built to cater for the needs of fewer than 2000 people, now a huge sprawling community. 



Am just back from a visit to Normandy and Brittany researching my Templar and Huguenot roots.  My poor hubby ... I dragged him around inumerable churches and graveyards ... and even in quite small villages the churches were big ... vast a lot of them


.......................................


BTW, the space within the main part of the church [assuming walls only 3 feet deep] is considerably less than twice the size of the entire space within 5A.[assuming walls 1 foot thick]  ................Measured on GE

I make
The Mccann apartment approx 1064 sq. feet within
Main part of the Luz church approx 1800 sq feet within



For a parish Church for a settlement the size of Luz + district

I call that tiny 

You call it small.  Take your pick. 




Nit picking again.  What's wrong with you guys?

[Admin]

Does anyone happen to know what was the tide status between 9pm and 10pm on the night that Madeleine disappeared?

[DCI]

Does anyone happen to know what was the tide status between 9pm and 10pm on the night that Madeleine disappeared?

According to Mark Harrison

Tidal Wave Data

Tidal data for the area of Praia Da Luz has been obtained from the buoy near
Faro. It collects data on wave height and diredion. However on 3* May 2007
the buoy malfunctioned and stopped collecting data for the month of May.
Data is available before and after this period and it could be inferred that
these results are consistent with the missing relevant period as there were no
exceptional storm events.

On the 2"d May 2007 the waves were of middle energy of a 2m height and a
easterly drift. When data was next collected on the 22"6May 2007 they were
now low energy waves of 0.5m to I'm with the same easterly winds.

Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs at 2m. The
maximum amount of beach would be accessible including the rocky outcrop.
High tide on the 4n May 2007 was at 0415hrs at 3.1 m. This would mean that
from 0200hrs onwards half the eastern part of the beach would be submerged
and so access to the rocky outcrop impossible on foot.

Therefore if someone deposited a body into the sea, on the night of M
McCann's disappearance, from the beach the optimum time window for full
access to the whole beach and rocky outcrop was between 2200hrs and
0200hrs. This time window would also be the optimum time for burial in the
sand, not withstanding the digability study limitations previously described.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm